CDL or no CDL? Wondering about what you have..... - Steel Soldiers::Military Vehicles Supersite

Deuce-bigalo · 04-14-2005, 12:24

Howdy all!

As I have been looking for a MV surplus, I have been drawn more and more to the 5T's. If your not using this for commercial purposes, are you still required to carry a CDL to drive them? When you have picked yours up did you already have your CDL or did you drive your new truck home and then get your CDL? Just some curious questions and thoughts about how other states operate!

Thanks!

John

rmgill · 04-14-2005, 13:47

I have a Non-Commercial Drivers Licenese that covers Class B and A trucks, (Its a class A). But, the current opinion of the Ga DMVS is that my truck is "commercial based on size". This differs with what the Feds say which is that it's not commercial and that Federal Law does not require a Commercial Drivers license to comply with the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Act.

At this point I'm counting on the Cop to 1. Not care because it's military and 2. See my side of it. If it goes to court, I'd argue that the DMVS should class it as a Recreational vehicle because they fail to define it.

I had a bill pending in the State Legislature but that's dead until next session because the DMVS delayed things until we met and talked it out. They proposed some changes and we met in the middle. It just didn't have enough time to get through the House for a floor vote.

So for now, I stay in a gray area and take my chances with the DMVS.

Deuce-bigalo · 04-14-2005, 15:11

That was where my question originated from. If it's Gov. Surplus and technically a MV, you fall under Federal regulation or State when you purchase it and it becomes Demil'd. If you have a 5T and, say for example, use it to move your stuff from one home to the other, does that mean it's private non commercial use or you must have a CDL? If it's not being used for profit commercial and yet is over the 26k GVW regardless of use does it have to have a CDL? Hmmmm - I will have to check into AZ statutes and laws. I would much prefer the 5T and a 2.5T rather than just a 2.5T. Have you been stopped before or hassled at all? I wouldn't think so, and about the only time you'd be able to get popped for speeding is in a school zone as the top speed I understand is 55mph. Here in Phoenix, the drivers drive 55 on the city streets and 85+ on the highways.

Thanks for the input though thus far!

John

Deuce-bigalo · 04-14-2005, 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Montieth Gill

I have a Non-Commercial Drivers Licenese that covers Class B and A trucks, (Its a class A). But, the current opinion of the Ga DMVS is that my truck is "commercial based on size".

Question - did you have to do anything differently from a standard operators license for the Class A & B endorsements?

John

poppop · 04-14-2005, 19:07

I am a farmer in Georgia and farmers are exempt from CDL's when hauling their own stuff and not for hire and then within 150 miles from home. But South Carolina which is 50 miles from here does not allow that in their state so i am taking a risk if I drive there. Something most folks don't know is even my 98 Chevrolot one ton requires a CDL when I hook my 20K trailer to it. I got waved into a check point a couple months ago hauling a junk Mack tractor to the farm for parts. The DOT man was not happy with my load and asked where I was taking this jewel. As I handed him my licence and insurance I told him I was a farmer and this was a parts truck. He handed my papers back without looking at them and said Git on down the road, i don't need to check you. I took him at his word and much releaved, got on down the road.

Deuce-bigalo · 04-14-2005, 19:12

Well, I just wonder how it is here too. I just don't know where to check into this because I am worried about just going down to the local DMV and asking any of the counter help - I wouldn't think they are 100% about Demil MV 26k and up. Just going to have to be cautious about who I speak to and take everything with a grain of salt till I know for sure the person I'm speaking with is qualified enough to take their word for gold!

John

Elwenil · 04-14-2005, 20:26

This whole deal just irritates the **** out of me. If you call the Federal DOT, they clearly state that you can drive a semi, and not need a CDL of anykind as long as you are not using it to haul commercial cargo for profit. Basically what it boils down to is that the states would lose a crap load of money in DMV and licensing fees if they did it the way they are supposed to, so they just play dumb. I can't believe the MVPA or somebody hasn't raised enough **** about this situation. About the only thing they can really fuss about is if the vehicle has true air brakes. Then they should require an air brake endorsement. It really makes no difference to me, since I have a Class A CDL with tanker, HAZMAT, and triple/double endorsements, so I can drive just about anything on the road. What irritates me is the extra cost of tags and fees that the DMVs want to add onto what is basically a collectable vehicle, reguardless of size. When I talked to the Federal DOT the guy just sounded real tired of answering the questions I had. He said he got it all the time, and had no idea what the individual states are trying to pull. He said he guessed that most states didn't know what to classify the truck as, since there was no set rule, so they group it with whatever it looks like. I don't mind paying a little more to drive it because it has an extra axle, but I don't want to have to pay like it's a road tractor and all the insurance and taxes that go a long with those. Grrrr...

Dieselsmoke · 04-14-2005, 20:57

The Federal standard requires States to issue a CDL to drivers according to the following license classifications:

Class A -- Any combination of vehicles with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.

Class B -- Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

Class C -- Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.

Elwenil · 04-14-2005, 21:32

The full text is this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dot.gov

THE DRIVER

Drivers have been required to have a CDL in order to drive a CMV since April 1, 1992.

The Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) has developed and issued standards for testing and licensing CMV drivers. Among other things, the standards require States to issue CDLs to their CMV drivers only after the driver passes knowledge and skills tests administered by the State related to the type of vehicle to be operated. [color=red>Drivers]:

Classes of License:

The Federal standard requires States to issue a CDL to drivers according to the following license classifications:

Class A -- Any combination of vehicles with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.

Class B -- Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

Class C -- Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.

CMV, meaninf Commercial Motor Vehicle. The definition of CMV is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dot.gov

A commercial motor vehicle is any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in <FONT color=red>interstate commerce[/color] to transport passengers or property when the vehicle: (1) has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) or gross combination weight rating (GCWR)—or a gross vehicle weight (GVW) or gross combination weight (GCW)—of 4,536 kilograms (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or (2) is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers, including the driver, for compensation; or (3) is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, whether or not it is used to transport passengers for compensation; or (4) is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, Subtitle B, Chapter I, Subchapter C.

Again, if you are not hauling cargo for money, the other regulations do not apply. I think the problem here is that the State and Federal Governments think that you need a special license to drive a large heavy vehicle. I agree, the differences in how they brake and handle are very good reasons to have special knowledge and training to drive them. However the State Governments seem to think that it all is commercial, be it a road tractor with a 53' van trailer or a Deuce used on the weekends or for fun. The laws that govern these vehicles need a serious revamp. Why do 70 year old men get to drive a huge RV on a normal license when they are such a hazard on the roads and have no idea how to drive a large heavy vehicle? Why do most states think that because your truck weighs "X" amount and has an extra axle, that you are automatically supposed to pay the same as a guy who runs cargo for money? If the Feds don't require you to run a fuel sticker and all the other BS that goes along with a real CMV, then why do the state and local governments?

[/quote]

rmgill · 04-15-2005, 11:42

The "In Commerce" bit is key.

Say you're into horses and have a small farm but you're not in business doing it. You go to a horse show with a 12,000 lb Trailer and win money. Is that commerce. The Federal Motor CArrier Safety Administration says NO! To be considered commercial, the income (or loss) has to be declared as a business expense. Drive your MV to a show and win prize money, you get money for your task, but it's not in Furtherance of a Commercial Enterprise.

From the regulatory guidance:
<cite>Question 21: Does the exemption in 390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?</cite>

<cite>Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.</cite>

An RV used for commercial purposes (Ads on the side) must be operated with a CDL. The bed and toilet do not make it non-commercial. A Class A Semi-tractor and Trailer used for personal use (Vintage Power events) not used for commerce is non-commercial and as such does not require a CDL per the Federal Regulations. Haul a load for pay however and you've crossed into commercial territory.

Now, that said, States can be more strict but are more likely confused on the exact fine details of the Federal Laws. The Fed I spoke with said as much in fact. Georgia is one that is fuzzy on the subject. Our exemptions from CDL licenses are RVs, Emergency Vehicles, Farm Trucks and Military Vehicles (Operated by the military). The Federal agent at the FMCSA that I spoke to on this said that Georgia was wrong to define it according to equipment and that the defining line should be stated as "in Commerce", technically, the RV description as the Ga DMVS currently interprets it is in violation of the Federal Statues if they exclude a Commercially operated RV used for a business venture (say for an advertising campaign). The nice thing is that the Georgia code section in question does not define what Recreational Vehicle is. So until I manage to get the law changed next year, I'll use this argument as a backup in court. If I can, I'll get a FMCSA rep to appear in court to back me up, they've unequivocally stated that I am correct in my understanding of the Federal Laws and by virtue of the requirement for states to comply with Federal laws for Federal Highway Funding, then so must the states comply with the federal minimum.

So, the Feds say, if it's used In-Commerce then it must be operated with a CDL. If it's not used in Commerce, then they say it does't have to be operated with a CDL. Many states laws specifically make this clarification. Some states do not.