I decided to check my timing since my symptoms matched his. It was a beautiful weekend so I was able to get some time to work on the unit. It is on a M101a1 outside.
Decided to do timing method two out of the manual. I took the spring out of the delivery valve, then just swung the #1 injector line around to leak into a jar. Started the fuel pumps and turned the motor over clockwise until the flow just stopped. I was a good 15 degrees from the PC mark. I had to keep going clockwise until I saw the PC mark. I went counter clockwise until it start to flow again. Held the control valve into the Wide Open Throttle (WOT) position and went clockwise again. The flow just cut off at the same flywheel timing. Didn't matter if I was WOT or shutoff position.
Since this is my first time working on these engines, I decided to check the PC timing with the brass rod. I found the location where the rod slipped into the hole like it should. I was within 1/2 of a tick mark of PC. Slight back and forth showed that the rotor is timed correctly.
Now, I turned the fuel pumps back on, and nothing comes out the #1 injector line. Back and forth a bit, still nothing. Turn the motor over one FULL revolution clockwise, then fuel starts to come out the line. Turn it a little more, and the fuel doesn't stop, just reducess to a dribble, (Oh, yea, gotta hold in WOT) Put it in WOT, go backwards a few degrees and get a strong flow. Then forward (Clockwise) a few degrees and the flow slows then drops to 1 drop every 5 - 10 seconds. Bingo! that is the port closing indication right out of the manual. Check the flywheel marks. Awesome! I have the right button. I am within 1/2 tick BEFORE PC. Just like I would like a new button to be. (So it will wear down to PC with time). I haven't pulled the IP (Dang return line fittings) so I don't know if the button is new or not. (I like to dream, the hour meter read 7 hours when I got it home)
Now why in the world is the brass rod hole 180 degrees (1 full revolution of crank shaft) different than the flow test?
Is it possible that the drive gear can be assembled 180 degrees out?
Does this mean, like I am thinking, that the motor is 180 degrees out of time?
Is there something broke inside the IP that would cause the phenomenon of the first paragraph yet allow it to look so good later? The plunger guide like Treeguy's problem? http://www.steelsoldiers.com/auxilla...tml#post641792
I used the port just above the throttle control. The line that goes to the cylinder right behind the fan and oil cooler. So, I am pretty sure I was on cylinder one.
You have an 002a....someone installed the IP with the #1 cylinder at TDC exhaust stroke rather than compression stroke. Line up the IP with the brass rod again, and pull the valve cover off. The cylinder nearest the blower wheel needs to be at TDC compression stroke....Both valves should be closed (Play in the rockers). I'm willing to bet you'll find yours is on the exhaust stroke.
If it is, rotate the engine another 180 degrees until the PC mark lines up on the compression stroke, and pull the pump a little (Since you can't get the lines all loose, maybe you can just get it far enough away to reach behind it with a small angled pick or something to turn the face gear), reach behind it with a small tool, like an angled pick and rotate the face gear until you can slide your brass rod into the hole. Re-bolt the IP, then remove the brass rod and try it again.
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....someone installed the IP with the #1 cylinder at TDC exhaust stroke rather than compression stroke.
That was my first thought. Then I got to thinkin'...(Sometimes I do that too much)... If the brass rod goes in, doesn't that mean that the rotor should be lined up with the number one port? I had to rotate the motor one full revolution to get fuel out the number one port.
Can the Injector pump be assembled such that the alignment pin is 180 degrees out? i.e. With the pin in, the IP is timed for firing the #2 cyclinder?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speddmon
Line up the IP with the brass rod again, and pull the valve cover off. The cylinder nearest the blower wheel needs to be at TDC compression stroke....Both valves should be closed (Play in the rockers). I'm willing to bet you'll find yours is on the exhaust stroke.
Ok, that is now on the to-do list since I no longer have confidence which TDC it is timed to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speddmon
If it is, rotate the engine another 180 degrees until the PC mark lines up on the compression stroke, and pull the pump a little (Since you can't get the lines all loose, maybe you can just get it far enough away to reach behind it with a small angled pick or something to turn the face gear), reach behind it with a small tool, like an angled pick and rotate the face gear until you can slide your brass rod into the hole. Re-bolt the IP, then remove the brass rod and try it again.
What if, (thinking again) ... I pull the pump a little (hopefully enough) with the pin left in, then rotate the motor on full rev to the PC mark? See any danger in that? Maybe easier than trying to rotate the face gear. I won't be attempting that until I am sure it is currently timed for TDC Exhaust.
The big question is... Can the IP be assembled 180 out? OR does 180 out mean something is broken inside and the IP needs to come out?
OR am I missing something obvious here?
Refresh us, What are your symptoms? Woudn't want to pull pump unless absolutley nessecary.
Basically, the unit will start and run for a few seconds after letting go of the switch, then shutdown as if someone turned of the fuel.
It is not the fuel selonoid. That clanks after it stops. So, temp and oil switches appear ok (at this time).
The plunger was originally stuck. I tapped it in carefully, then used a wrench to turn the motor and bring it back out. Did this repeatedly until the plunger moved on it own. That's when she started the above symptoms.
Joesco went through a lot of trouble shooting, and I followed his lead. That is why I decided yesterday to check the timing. I just didn't get the results I expected, (and I expected several different scenarios). I just don't understand the results I got.
As an aside: I tried to run the motor on straight SeaFoam to clean the injectors and pump. Couldn't get it to run as well as straight diesel. So, drained the filtes again and re primed. Still worse. a little TS and found the #2 cylinder glow plug died. Replaced it and now back to the basic problem.
I am starting to think the engine is only running on the glow plugs and stops because they cool down.
...
I am starting to think the engine is only running on the glow plugs and stops because they cool down.
Sorry so winded.
Winded? Naw, clipping the quote fixes that!
Do you have the ability to check the compression? If so that would tell you whether the glow plugs are keeping it running. Personally, I doubt it, but it is possible. Eventually (two or three starts in a row) things should have gotten warm enough to not need the glow plugs.
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When it runs for the short time that it does, does is seem to run on all cylinders? This will imediatly let you know if they are good and that its not the injectors, sounds like a fuel blockage. Your over thinking the IP pump regarding the timing or IP out of time with itself unless you "drive washer" dog house/bread loaf hole is warn so the pulsating shaft does not align with the proper ports letting fuel out to the injectors at the right time. Now that I think of it, seeing as this shaft was stuck earlier, this may be you problem. Your washer may not be shattered, but the shape of the hole is mashed creating slop. The guts on the IP need to be a tight fit. I still think you need to disassemble your IP if Spedmons timing suggestion doesn't fix you up. Its probably (most probably) not a glow plug issue.
The sticking in the rod/pin to time the pump, how are you sure that it is going into the face gear slot? The pin will go in but not knowing how far when not in the face gear and then in the face gear will give you a different depth (obviously), Just a thought. So it may or may not be timed, but you did do the #2 timing fuel check thing-a-ma-jig testing, so maybe the rod did go in.
When it runs for the short time that it does, does is seem to run on all cylinders?
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by treeguy
Your over thinking the IP pump regarding the timing or IP out of time with itself
Occupational Hazard. I am now an Engineer, paid to think... and finding my technician skills waning.
I was reading the AMBAC Service Instructions for the IP. If the "Plunger Guide" (#26 of figure 1) was put in up-side-down, that would put the timing off by 180 degrees.
Has anyone else done the "Timing Method #2"????
Doesn't the flow out the #1 line match up with the rod-into-the-face-gear-slot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by treeguy
I still think you need to disassemble your IP if Spedmons timing suggestion doesn't fix you up.
I think so too. Because of the frozen fittings, it's a PITA, and I don't have a shop to work in; I am trying EVERYTHING else to avoid that.
I will be triple check the timing and verify #1 cyclinder is on a compression stroke when the rod slips into the face gear hole/slot. Won't be for a week or so due to traveling.
Will post my findings.
I change the color / contrast for PeterD. Hope I don't offend anyone.
"If the "Plunger Guide" (#26 of figure 1) was put in up-side-down, that would put the timing off by 180 degrees."
Yes, I was thinking about that last night. It does seem possible but you haven't taken yours apart yet, but no one knows if any one has. Who ever you got it from (jenny) unless GL, did they say it ran or had they ever run it? It must have been run, there are hours on the meter right?
MEP002A IP - You guys that have taken 'em apart...
) ... I pull the pump a little (hopefully enough) with the pin left in, then rotate the motor on full rev to the PC mark? See any danger in that? Maybe easier than trying to rotate the face gear. I won't be attempting that until I am sure it is currently timed for TDC Exhaust.
