Non-Detergent Motor Oil??? - Steel Soldiers::Military Vehicles Supersite

SasquatchSanta · 03-03-2009, 20:56

The other day, after driving my M37 for approximately six I noticed that the oil lines to the stock remove oil filter were still cold. That tells me that in the six miles that I usually drive to town and back the filter isn't warming up enough to stop by-passing.

With this in mind, I'm considering changing to straight 30W non-detergent oil.

I'm told the big advantage to modern detergent oil is that it keeps dirt and crud in suspension so a modern, high efficiency oil filter can remove it. The way I see it, in an M37 there are two problems. First, the stock canister oil filter is far from being high efficiency. At 20 micron you could throw a cat through it. Second, the stock filter appears to be by-passing most of the time during sold weather season.

Therefore .... "PLESE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG" ... The "Modern" detergent oil is keeping the dirt in suspension where it is not being filtered/cleaned and therefore is constantly curculating the dirt and crud in suspension through the engine instead of allowing it to drop out and into the bottom of the pan --- as non-detergent oil would. I think I'd rather have the dirt in the bottom of the pan than constantly curculating through the bearings.

Under this scenario, it seems more logical to run non-detergent oil and change it often.

We are installing the new pistons, rings and rod Thursday. I'm also installing an oil pan heater so the straight 30W won't cause cold start problems. I've come to the conclusion that it's "always" best to start 'em warm --- plug 'em in.

What do you think about running non-detergent oil???

saquishmike · 03-03-2009, 21:03

"At 20 micron you could throw a cat through it. " That's the best saying I've heard this week

kc5mzd · 03-03-2009, 21:15

When you use non-detergent oil all the "dirt and crud" sticks to the inside of your engine - not just the pan. It would be better to run detergent oil and change it often to keep the inside of your oil passages clean. I live in Texas it never gets below 25 - 30 here. Is 6 miles even enough to get the oil to warm up? Diesels naturally run colder. I took my fan off this winter because I was doing a lot of on road driving the radiator is still always cool unless I idle for over 20 min. Have you considered taking the fan off to get more power, faster warm-ups, and better mpg?

JasonS · 03-03-2009, 21:16

Honestly, I think that you are worrying too much. 20 micron is probably typical for mass market, common car/ light truck filter. However, even with a virtually worthless bypass oil filter, you should still get good service out of your truck. It is not that your oil filer is or isn't efficient. The problem is that it isn't EFFECTIVE. I wouldn't run non-detergent oil.

garp · 03-03-2009, 22:49

I would question whether or not you actually have oil flow thru the lines, if the lines are cold, there is no oil flowing. Maybe I am missing something here?

Bill W · 03-03-2009, 23:28

First off being 230's have a "bypass" filtering system none of the oil going to your bearings gets filtered .,bypass filter taps off the high pressure oil galley, small amounts of that oil then goes through the bypass filter and then returned to the oil pan via the pressure relief valve ( see #32 in cutaway pic)which only opens when oil pressure in the engine reaches 45psi or greater,if it doesn't reach 45psi the filtered oil deadheads at the ( unopened) valve which might be possible reason why your lines are cold. If you have not rebuilt your engine then I would stick with Nondetergent As mentioned detergent oil keeps debri in suspension so you should not run that type of oil in a older ( non rebuilt) block as you'll just be picking up the loose crud in the pan and sending it through the bearings. .I used detergent 30w in my 230 after I rebuilt it.,I changed it every 2000miles., If I remember right they recommend changing the bypass filter element every 10k. All this info can be confirmed in the operators manual. Later more modern engines were designed/built to have "full flow" filter systems which allowed the oil to be filtered first before it goes through the bearings.

SasquatchSanta · 03-04-2009, 11:39

kc5mzd wrote:

Quote:

When you use non-detergent oil all the "dirt and crud" sticks to the inside of your engine - not just the pan. It would be better to run detergent oil and change it often to keep the inside of your oil passages clean. I live in Texas it never gets below 25 - 30 here. Is 6 miles even enough to get the oil to warm up? Diesels naturally run colder. I took my fan off this winter because I was doing a lot of on road driving the radiator is still always cool unless I idle for over 20 min. Have you considered taking the fan off to get more power, faster warm-ups, and better mpg?

The water pump fas has indeed been removed and an electric fan installed. The electric fan comes on at 190 and goes off at 185. In 6 miles, with a little pre idling time, the water temp will get up to 190 but evidently the oil isn't warming up enough to stop by-passing the filter.
It's not uncommon to have 20 to 25 below zero weather us here. I try not to leave the house when it gets under 30 below.

Bill W wrote:

Quote:

First off being 230's have a "bypass" filtering system none of the oil going to your bearings gets filtered .,bypass filter taps off the high pressure oil galley, small amounts of that oil then goes through the bypass filter and then returned to the oil pan via the pressure relief valve ( see #32 in cutaway pic)which only opens when oil pressure in the engine reaches 45psi or greater,if it doesn't reach 45psi the filtered oil deadheads at the ( unopened) valve which might be possible reason why your lines are cold. If you have not rebuilt your engine then I would stick with Nondetergent As mentioned detergent oil keeps debri in suspension so you should not run that type of oil in a older ( non rebuilt) block as you'll just be picking up the loose crud in the pan and sending it through the bearings. .I used detergent 30w in my 230 after I rebuilt it.,I changed it every 2000miles., If I remember right they recommend changing the bypass filter element every 10k. All this info can be confirmed in the operators manual. Later more modern engines were designed/built to have "full flow" filter systems which allowed the oil to be filtered first before it goes through the bearings.

I wasn't aware that the by-pass threashold was 45PSI. Even though the engine is currently down because of gas in oil contamination problems I've always had good oil pressure. The engine was boiled and completely rebuilt about 250 hours ago.

One of the reasons I feel the filter is bypassing is because of the cold weather. The stock filter sets off to the side of the engine where it is full of 25 below zero oil and in my opinion it simply takes too long to warm up to be effective.

By the time the oil gets hot enough the clear the cold oil plug from the filter it may he warm enough to where the pressure drops below 45 PSI --- it's like a cat chasing it's tail.

The inverted "drain back" filters on the deuce were designed to counter this cold weather problem. By having all of the oil in the pan it could be warmed in the pan by the arctic heater and therefore ready for the filters upon start up. The only reason I didn't go with Jatonka's anti-drain back spin on filters was because of the cold weather factor. The pre-lube pump system I installed to counter the oil pressure delay is a pain in the butt to have to operate all the time.

Anyway, I tend to agree with you on the non-detergent (non-suspension) oil. I think because it was something that was used in the past that we tend to think of it as sub-modern wen in reality the old Chrysler engines are not sub-modern.

I'm told it is/was common practice to remove the by-pass oil filter from the MB and CJ2A Jeeps. The reason --- they were all but in-effective. I'm thinking about removing the by-pass filter from the M37 and changing the oil (non-detergent) every thousand miles. It makes good Deuce fuel.

Barrman · 03-04-2009, 12:23

What about making a full flow filter set up like Jason did on his Gasser?

SasquatchSanta · 03-04-2009, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrman

What about making a full flow filter set up like Jason did on his Gasser?

I've got a 251 Spitfire engine with full flow that I plan on rebuilding this summer. It will replace the 230.

I'll have to check out Jason's modification

oifvet · 03-04-2009, 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by saquishmike

"At 20 micron you could throw a cat through it. " That's the best saying I've heard this week