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Need alittle help concerning Gensets

sloryd

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I am want to find a 15 -30kw 60hz generator as an emergency back for the house during hurricanes. What model Genset do I look for? I see them on the GL but I am dumb to the condition codes.

Or do I look on Ebay for a known good generator. I do not mind working on them to get them functional.
 

Speddmon

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15 and 30 KW sets are awfully big for home back-up power...unless you have an awfully huge house.

But the models are MEP-004a for the 15KW, MEP-005a for the 30KW.

The condition codes on GL have an explanation with them. But unserviceable in the military's eyes isn't necessarily unserviceable in a civilians eyes...one of my MEP-003a's was listed as unserviceable, but it runs and produces power like a champ.
 

Speddmon

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USAFSS-ColdWarrior,
I too was going to get the biggest honking generator I could afford until another member mentioned wet stacking quite a while ago. As an electrician I knew full well, that my actual requirements needed in the event of an outage were no where near even the 15KW for an MEP-004a. But they were so cheap, I figured "what the heck, bigger is always better" I learned thankfully beforehand that this is not always the case.

If either you or sloryd need any assistance or advice sizing just ask, you'll get lots of ideas from people on this forum who don't have anything to be gained by providing information to you. There are tons of websites out there with information on the subject. But remember, most of them are run by someone selling or manufacturing generators, and have a vested interest in you buying the biggest generator they can get you to buy.
 

sloryd

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No...... I am not sure what size to get. I know however that after IKE I went though one generator and had to by another one to keep my girlfrieds house running. She was without power for 12 days and in the pasadena area you do not have your security lights off at night. If a 10kw will do the job, great this will give me a starting point to look for. I do want diesel for the saftey of the fuel storage and low rpm.

From what you are indicating a 10 to 15kw range is better.
 

Speddmon

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it's all going to depend on your load requirements...if all you are going to run is a refrigerator, possibly a deep freezer and a bunch of lights, you can easily get by with a 3kw set. If you want to run window A/C units, you need to step it up some. Central A/C, need to look at the full load amp rating and starting current and go from there...it's all dependent on what you plan to run with the generator.

not all of the diesels are low RPM either. The RPM is totally determined by the design of the generator, 2 pole generator = 3600 RPM, 4 pole = 1800 RPM.

Use the search function at the top of the page for some of your specific questions or concerns, most of this has been covered before. If you don't have any luck feel free to ask. there are a lot of guys on here with these sets and a lot of knowledge about them too.
 

USAFSS-ColdWarrior

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My needs might occassionally be to power the home (fully), but I am acquiring a "Weather/Catastrophic Event Evac Motorpool". I would like to be able to carry food, fuel, water, & generation, etc for a party of 4 plus 5 dogs & 5 cats. Hence, a Duece, M109, a Trailer Mounted Gen-Set, and fuel/water trailer would be a great start.

Ample power to supply a small camp of evacuees has its merits, in addition to being able to power the whole house if we stay post-event.
 

Isaac-1

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Ok, here go a few points

1, KW does not equal KW does not equal KW. The KW ratings on the import built generators you find in the big box stores and sold to residential customers is often "peak" output levels, Lets say 10KW with a surge rating maybe 10% above that (11KW) and a continuous rating 10-20% below the advertised numbers (8-9KW), in reality even these numbers are very optomistic . If you move into the better industrial generator models such as those built by Cummins/Onan, Kohler, etc. you will find units advertised with similar 10KW "Standby" or 8KW "prime" ratings, the difference is they mean it, standby means up to 500 hours per year, prime means day in and day out for weeks, or months. In the case of the Kohler "Fast Response" series they are guranteed to provide 300% of rated output for 10 seconds, compare this to that 10% extra surge rating on the comsumer junk. Then you get to the miltiary units, these units tended to have a somewhat different design philosify of it is better to have a unit that runs poorly than a unit that does not run at all (manual adjustable voltage if the voltage regualor fails, less responsive voltage regulators that fail in full voltage rather than no voltage mode, safety bypass switches on the larger units, etc.) they also tend to have another degree of conservitism in ratings than their civilian counterparts.

2, Keeping in mind the information in topic 1, Determine your reuired load, go throough your house looking at those pesky data plates on the things you HAVE TO power during a major power outage and write down the amps and volts drawn (if listed also write down the watts), in most cases this will be the MAX draw not the average running draw, but be aware motors and refrigeration compressors can draw 3-4 times their rated amps for a few seconds during start up. (again see that "surge number in topic 1) Once you have your list made up multiply the volts x amps to get volt amps or VA (most real generators will list VA or KVA in additon to Watts or KW and it is a better unit of measure for sizing for technical reasons). Now go back and weed out those things you don"t HAVE TO RUN, list those major loads that you can manualy load share by not running both at the same time and list only the higher draw item (washing machine & electric water heater vs. Electric clothes dryer vs. electric stove) Take this number and go back to topic 1 add correct amount of conservitiism to the advertised rating and move on:

3, Pick a fuel gasoline, natural gas/propane, diesel this can be a whole topic in itself, but here go a few points
Gasoline, is commonly available until everyone wants it, then post disaster the nearest open gas station may be 150 miles away. Gasoline does not store well, you must add stabilizer if you want it to last over a couple of months, and if keeping a large amount on hand there is a considerable explosion danger.

Propane, has much the same problems as gasoline, but stores somewhat better, on the downside can you say fuel air bomb if it leaks.

Natural gas, hey it gets pumped to your house which is good as long as the pipeline stays up and you don't have to see the fuel bill at the end of the month.

Diesel, stores better than gasoline, will not explode under normal conditons it will not even burn without a wick, diesel engines are have a far more linear power curve at constant rpms than gas/propane spark ignited engines (at half load they burn about half the fuel they do at full load)

4, Will the neighbors complain, most of the MEP units you will find are not exactly quiet, the hearing protection required stenciled on the side is your first clue, even the little 3kwn MEP 701A (MEP 016B in an ASK (sound suppressing) housing) has a hearing protection required within 15 feet warning, the common non sound suppressed MEP 002's and 003's are MUCH LOUDER, so unless you can locate one at least 50 feet (preferably more) away from where you plan to sleep be aware of the issue.

5, One advantage of these military units as well as the older industrial units is their weight, a 3KW MEP701A is 525 pounds, a standard MEP-002a is around 900 and the MEP-003A is well over 1,000 this makes them unlikely to grow legs and walk off during the night.

As to your question about the condition codes on GL, from my experience the condition codes are USELESS, I have bought 3 generators (2 industrial models and the one small MEP701A) from GL, 2 were listed as HX (not worth fixing), the other was listed as serviceable. The HX listed MEP701A started with just fuel and a jump start, it does have a small oil leak from the oil cooler (bought a replacement cooler on ebay for about $40 and a new battery for about $85), the large HX code 125KW Onan needed a new control circuit board, and a new relay that had shorted because of a bad ground point (about $400 to fix), the fair condition Kohler 30KW unit was far from fair condition as the engine had filled with water (I drained about a gallon or so from the oil pan) and had seized, I was able to free it up by soaking with a mix of fluids, and it runs good, but that was LUCK. I have also bought several other items listed as GX or scrap with nothing major wrong ($12,000 18 month old large HP color laser printer for $300, just needed a drum cartridge to get running), an electric walk behind forklift code HX with a broken fuse holder, etc. SO what it comes down to is buyer beware and trust what you can see in the photo's (to some degree)

Ike

p.s. don't forget fuel consumption, a 3-5 KW diesel generator will consume .5-.75 gallons per hour at full load, a 10KW unit around 1 gallon per hour, 30KW around 2.5 gal/hr etc. this adds up fast in a multiday outage even for a smaller unit your looking at over 100 gallons per week.
 
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NDT

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Hi sloryd and welcome to the site. If you have a Houston area natural gas home, the MEP002A (5kW) will be fine, an all electric home, you will need the MEP003A (10kW) This is assuming a 3 or 4 ton central A/C unit. I just got a 002A for the same reason as you, I am down the road from you in League City if you would like to study it before you buy one. My buddy just won a 003A and it is coming here, the two are very similar. You will need to build a sound enclosure if you are in a residential neighborhood and plan on 24-7 operation. Do a forum search for these two generators here and on smokestak.com, you will learn a lot. The military diesel 15 and 30 kW generators are too large and thirsty for emergency use.
 

bevanet

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I agree with Isaac-1 about the condition codes being useless. I just bought a Libby 10kw that had a condition code A-4 "serviceable and issuable to all customers without limitation of restrictions" It has the fuel lines disconnected, an oil leak, completely dead batts (won't take a charge) and missing knobs. GL won't do anything for me. Does anyone know where to buy a knob and or light bulbs for the control panel? I see people worried about "wet stacking" It doesn't look to me like it is turbocharged (unless it is hidden pretty well) From what I read about wet stacking it only affects turboed models. Is that true?
 

Speddmon

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bevanet, first welcome to the site,

no wet stacking does not affect only turbo diesels. It can actually affect your air cooled generator, but not as easily (since it's air cooled, it would get to a higher temperature easier, with a lighter load). Wet stacking occurs in any diesel when it does not get up to operating temperature. If you are running a diesel for extended periods of time without much load it's best to run it with a pretty good load for about 15 minutes before shut down, to help get it to temp and burn out the deposits left behind.

As for your missing knobs, try WWGrainger or an electrical supply house, they are nothing special, you can get just about anything that will fit on the stems and make it work.

As for the condition code you posted about, servicable, is just that....your set is servicable. Is it perfect? No, but it is servicable. I'm not trying to be an a$$, but this is GL we're talking about here. The condition code you mentioned falls right into the definition as layed out by DRMO. The following was coppied from the federal condition codes PDF file from the DRMO and can be found on GL's site. The -4 in the code is where they get you, it stated repairs may be needed but nothing significant, nothing you listed would be considered significant.



A- Serviceable-Issuable without Qualification New, used, repaired, or reconditioned material which is serviceable and issuable to all customers without limitation or restrictions. Includes material with more than 6 months shelf life remaining.

4-Usable Property which shows some wear, but can be used without significant repair.
 

Carl_in_NH

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Concur that condition codes are meaningless. My MEP-017A was sold as 'mixed scrap iron and steel' - with a high lot / sale number that classified it as a scrap sale from GL. All it needed was oil in the crankcase, a battery, and the rust from condensation while in storage cleaned out of the carb bowl. Runs like a champ after minor work - but that's just luck. It really could have turned out to be scrap iron.

-Carl
 

OPCOM

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I can draw 13KW. That does not include peaks for starting two a/c condensing units. I am also running servers. I'll give a pitch also for civvy models, if they are good quality.

I have a Mankato 40K with a 4 cyl perkins engine and the alternator rewired for single phase so it is more like 30K due to the alternator. Those are prime mover figures, not peak. The machine is 20+ years old and has 250 hours.

In 5 years I have put about 120 hours on it.

I suppose there might be some wet stacking but I have never noticed it, or, would I not notice it until something bad happens?


I realize I could have bought a 15KW or 20KW natural gas set, but when the zombie apocalype happens, the natural gas will probably get cut off.

You may want to consider natual gas if you have it. Then you don't have to refuel each day.

It cost about 0.75 gallons per hour to run the big genset. Please consider that in your calculations.

I have considered adding a smaller manually operated secondary generator on n-gas and using a 200A knife switch to go from one to the other.


1.) The Mankato cost $5K including transfer switch.
2.) Flatbed wrecker to get the genny home.
3.) The slab cost $800
4.) The electrical cost $3K (pot smoking electricians, your price may be higher for non-pot smoking electricians, but at least they won't come back later and insist you forgot to pay them.)
5.) Rewiring the genset from 3ph 208 to 1ph 240/120 was free. I did it myseld because the pot smoiking electricians were afraid to touch it.


Do you want to add an automatic transfer switch system? That can be $100-$2000 depending on what you find used or new.

rant:
Never buy anything with a Chinese engine, unless it is from a maker you trust that actually enforces quality standards.
My truck mounted Gillette set has a Lombardini, made in China, but it has a 3 year warranty under normal industrial use, not a POS like maybe the ETO btand and others.
Also I learned that the size of the alternator itself is important. The alternator on that good set is the same size as a Chinese 12KW. Gillette's alternator is made here in the USA.

Just look closely at each one of the power sources for sale at a pupolar siete. $1000-2000 for a 6KW unit? 5 different brands and yet all the same cookie cutter machines. As many brands as colors of paint and kinds of stickers. How can it be unless it's pure junk. There are many many horror stories on the interwebz about these sets.

end of rant.


Military ones are cheap and great, but they make enough noise to drown out the devil's bagpipes. You will spend some $$ silencing them if you care about that. Zombies are attracted to noise and even come out in daylight when the power grid fails. I can speak from experience.
 

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Carl_in_NH

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As OPCOM indicates, the $1-2K specials will likely get the job done for short grid interruptions, but if your goal is hurricane or ice storm aftermath for a week or more at a time, there's a good chance there's not going to be a lot of cheap generator left after all that hard running. After you've done that two or three times, do you trust it to take you through the next storm? Probably depends on a number of factors - but I just don't like to depend on systems that run without margin.

Fuel is one of my concerns; there's no utility supplied gas around here for many miles - so that's out. Propane is an option - but you better have a big tank - cause the truck isn't likely to delivery during a long outage. That leaves gasoline and diesel - both good options with limitations associated with each. For me, that means more than one set (redundant machines are a good thing from a failure perspective, yet will require more work to maintain and space to store), at least one gas, and the same for diesel.

While the noise of military sets presents challenges, one advantage of the military sets is weight. Two people with larceny in their hearts can easily abscond with a 200 pound civi generator, but 1100 pounds of mil generator would require them to devote more time and effort. That provides additional opportunities to aim and reload.

-Carl
 
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Speddmon

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very well put Carl,

The main advantage to diesel sets, in my opinion, is the storage of diesel is a lot less sensitive than gas. Higher flash point, so it's more stable. Plus there is no carb to gum up if you don't properly maintain it. I always have at least 1 drum of off road diesel around for the tractor, so the diesel generators just made a lot of sense to me. Put a little diesel stabilizer in your container and it'll last a long time in storage.

As for the noise factor, I've said it before, noise is relative. I don't think my MEP-003a's are any noisier than my tractor. I have one of the sets sitting about 50 feet from the front door of my house, with the exhaust pointing toward the house, and I can barley hear it inside. Granted, I do not have any neighbors to complain, but during a week long outage even if I did, I would think they should have more important things to worry about.

2cents
 

bevanet

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As for the condition code you posted about, servicable, is just that....your set is servicable. Is it perfect? No, but it is servicable. I'm not trying to be an a$$, but this is GL we're talking about here. The condition code you mentioned falls right into the definition as layed out by DRMO. The following was coppied from the federal condition codes PDF file from the DRMO and can be found on GL's site. The -4 in the code is where they get you, it stated repairs may be needed but nothing significant, nothing you listed would be considered significant.



A- Serviceable-Issuable without Qualification New, used, repaired, or reconditioned material which is serviceable and issuable to all customers without limitation or restrictions. Includes material with more than 6 months shelf life remaining.

4-Usable Property which shows some wear, but can be used without significant repair.
I hope the repairs are not significant. Since the fuel line is disconnected, it could have a bad fuel pump or something else wrong. Funny but several of the gens in the same event were condition code F-7. When I looked back at the pictures, the others appeared to be more serviceable then mine. I also bought the truck in my avatar picture. In the auction it had front turn signals. When it was delivered, they were gone. Of course since my delivery person didn't notice before picking it up I doubt GL will do anything.
 
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Speddmon

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From what you described, the fuel lines would be my only place for concern...other than the oil leak of course. Where is the leak located? What fuel lines are off and from where? Are they just off of the tank, are they off of the IP or the filters?

As long as the steel lines on the IP are intact I wouldn't be too concerned about it not starting up for you. If it's just rubber lines, there are several possibilities about why they were removed. Could have been cannibalized to fix another set or any number of reasons to be disconnected.

Dead batteries are nothing really, I picked up a couple of interstate group 31's at 1000 CCA each, but any pair of batteries will do the trick. You don't have to have the 6TL's that the military uses.

Missing knobs are really nothing either, like I said, you should be able to locate them through an electrical supplier or grainger or another industrial supply house.

If you have any questions or concerns about it, post up and we'll be glad to offer advice and help. I'm an industrial electrician, so I might be able to help cross reference some of the knobs and locate civi part numbers for you.
 
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