Rear axle alignment?

Is this normal? I got my first deuce this week and I noticed that the rear axles are not aligned. The front axle is shifted to the left and the rear axle is shifted to the right. Are they really meant to move that much left and right? I don't see any type of panhard rod to control side movement.

I'm no expert but mine "goes out" when I back up while turning or go forward while turning.

Check the dogbones on the rear axles for tightness, if they are OK you should be fine. Also look at it after you have driven in a straight line for several feet.

There are 6 dogbones and if they are OK (good rubber) it is probably fine. If you lose one, you probably can't drive it

Check the Torque-Rods (aka "dog-bones") for sloppiness as outlined in this PM.


In addition, I'd get in a big parking lot & make a tight LH circle then check the axle positions.

THEN I'd make a tight RH circle and check the axle positions again to see if they shifted to the other sides.

THEN I'd drive it straight for a good distance to see if they realign.


I SUSPECT that this might be a sign that your Torque-Rods are aging a little, BUT it appears that the axles are designed to have some side to side tolerance. So it MIGHT be normal.
IF you don't experience any strange vibrations, pulling when braking, drifting in the lane, or abnormal tire wear, AND your Torque-Rods appear to be OK I wouldn't lose a ton of sleep over this....



THAT SAID, I'm gonna go take a closer look at mine now......

I might be wrong, and probably am, but I would think you would need some side to side play for off road conditions. Like going through the mud, both rear axles will not track through the same path, which would give all axles some grip.

I've been told the bearings on the center 'shaft' (the part that actually attaches to the truck frame) need replacement when you can see this. It's a sealed system and only has to move when the rear axles flex. Was also told not to even think about it till the frame was supported and the rear axles also were artificially supported to take all the weight off this part when opening the end caps. (it's the part exactly in between the rear wheels, above the springs).

"SCSG-G4"

If you look at "Happyland1410"'s pictures it is the axles that are misaligned (as shown clearly in the 1st picture), but the springs appear to still be straight. The front tandem axle is clearly biased to the left (relative to the other axle & the spring pack), while the rear tandem axle is clearly biased to the right (although not as dramatically as the front tandem).

Not to say that spring pivot bearing wear/slop might not also be a concern, but this doesn't appear to be case & isn't the primary issue he is concerned about.
STILL a good item to consider!

Thanks for all of the comments!

I went out and checked the dogbones. The bottom 4 look real new. The top 2 look older and the rubber is starting to crack a little but they still feel pretty tight.

I went back and checked the spring seats that SCSG-G4 mentioned. I can see that there is some twist there. I found the TM for these (9-2320-361-20 section 7-19). I see these are bushings not bearings. Looks like a pretty good job. I wonder if these parts are readily available?

For what it is worth, I made a really tight right turn into the place the truck is currently parked. I will move it tomorrow and make a hard left turn to see if anything changes.

Here are a couple of pictures looking down at the spring seats. The first one is the left and the second one is the right side.

Without that much room in the pockets, there would be no articulation in the suspension as the springs are not designed to twist radially. What you are looking at is pretty much commonplace in the deuce or at least it has been with my family of deuces.

Interesting Pics!

These seem to agree with the symptom of the front tandem axle being biased to the left & the rear tandem axle to the right.

& yes, these spring seat pivot bushings might be worn. But I'm not sure what the normal/acceptable amount of play in these bushings is. Suggest you check the TM.

The spring twisting you are seeing here MIGHT be more of a result of the axle misaligment than the cause.

I guess what I'm saying here is that you MIGHT replace the bushings, and also replace all of the torque-rods, BUT STILL experience this axle misalignment after making a tight turn!

So I would check the specs, replace/repair anything that you think is too sloppy, but not worry about it too much if it drives, tracks, & stops straight with no ill effects!


I'm curious to see if the same condition exists on a newly reburbished Deuce after making a tight turn on hard pavement????

From Happyland1410's post "For what it is worth, I made a really tight right turn into the place the truck is currently parked. I will move it tomorrow and make a hard left turn to see if anything changes." Tha may be the reason for the offset. If he didn't roll straight for some distance, this is what you have for sure. My guess his truck is fine.

BugEyeBear said:

.................... you MIGHT replace the bushings, and also replace all of the torque-rods, BUT STILL experience this axle misalignment after making a tight turn!

Click to expand...

I'm afraid to disagree....! With no wear on the center pivot shaft, bearings or newer style bushings replaced and correct adjustment he will hardly notice any lateral displacement while turning and no misalignment at all after completing it.

It is very easy to check the condition of the pivots: just jack it up in the center of the spring seat axle until springs are totally decompressed and can move freely, that is up & down ONLY, in their pockets. There should NOT be any lateral movement!

Happyland can be happy if his center shafts are still OK and only the bearings need to be replaced...
He also might take a look here: https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?16605-tandem-axle-spring-seat-shaft-repair-upgrade.html

I'm curious to see if the same condition exists on a newly reburbished Deuce after making a tight turn on hard pavement????

Click to expand...

My answer is NO!

G.

gringeltaube said:

I'm afraid to disagree....! With no wear on the center pivot shaft, bearings or newer style bushings replaced and correct adjustment he will hardly notice any lateral displacement while turning and no misalignment at all after completing it.

....My answer is NO!

G.

Click to expand...

I was referring to the axle misalignment during tight cornering.
Not misalignment of the spring pack.

By design (clearance of the spring ends to the axle pockets, and flexibility of the rubber dogbone ends) some lateral movement of the axles would be permitted.
This lateral movement would be restricted by the compression limits of the dogbone rubber ends AND ultimately by the axle pockets making side contact with the spring ends.
IF the spring pack's center pivot bearing is sloppy this lateral movement could be greater than normal.

This "greater than normal" case appears to be the case for "Happyland", and perhaps a pivot bearing refurb is called for.

Those pivot bearings are solid steel cone shaped bushings and are held in with a nut like axle bearings. That nut could have loosend up and let the springs shift. It might just need tightening
up. I had a Duece that the nut had backed all the way off and that axle pack floped around. The threads were completly worn off so we removed the springs, cleaned everything up and packed with grease. The springs were then installed and pivot bushing put firmly in place and then welded. I know this is not the correct fix but the axle will have to be replaced anyway so why not. This truck is used on the farm only. I have several comercial semi tractors and they all have some side to side movement when turning. I think as long as they tract true and don't wear tires it is no big deal, as long as you are sure there are no mechanical defects.

BugEyeBear said:

.............................................
By design (clearance of the spring ends to the axle pockets, and flexibility of the rubber dogbone ends) some lateral movement of the axles would be permitted.
This lateral movement would be restricted by the compression limits of the dogbone rubber ends AND ultimately by the axle pockets making side contact with the spring ends.
..............................

Click to expand...

Sorry Bear but actually this is how it was designed: the dogbones can only control caster and axle housing paralelism, they do NOT restrict lateral displacement of the axles at all. That's why I disagreed at first when you suggested to also replace those to cure the OP's problem. (they are expensive!)
Only the spring pack ends - which on level ground are almost touching or resting against the hardened pads on the inside of the seat pockets - keep the rear axles aligned laterally, within 1/4"!

The attached pics of a completely refurbished system show this clearly.
Also to be seen: plenty of clearance, outwards, to allow for free movement of the spring ends riding on the hardened inserts (AKA pucks) while the suspension is flexing.
(Added a diagram to better explain relative spring movement in their pockets).

G.

gringeltaube said:

Sorry Bear but actually this is how it was designed: the dogbones can only control caster and axle housing paralelism, they do NOT restrict lateral displacement of the axles at all. That's why I disagreed at first when you suggested to also replace those to cure the OP's problem. (they are expensive!)
Only the spring pack ends which on level ground are almost touching or resting against the hardened pads on the inside of the seat pockets keep the rear axles aligned laterally, within 1/4"!

The attached pics of a completely refurbished system show this clearly.
Also to be seen: plenty of clearance, outwards, to allow for free movement of the springs riding on the hardened inserts (pucks) while axles are twisting.
(Added a diagram to better explain relative spring movement in their pockets).

G.

Click to expand...

"Gringeltaube"

I think we are in agreement that the springpack bearings are the source of the problem here.
For the record I never suggested he replace the dogbones. (I only suggested he check them, especially before I saw the pics of the spring pack misalignment.)
I was only pointing out that there is some lateral tolerance in the axle location, and that even with "perfect" dogbones & pivot bearings this lateral tolerance will still exist. (Although probably less that he is seeing now!)


BTW: I just looked at my spring positions in their axle pockets. They match your pictures perfectly! (ALTHOUGH mine aren't as pristine looking as your's are!)

Well, I now know for sure what the problem is. I moved the truck and the rear axles straightened right back up. Yes, there is room for the axles to move back and forth some during turns. Now the bad part. As suggested I jacked the weight of the truck off of the springs and sure enough the spring seat bushings/bearings are shot. The passenger side is loose and probably needs bushings/bearings but maybe it could just be tightened. (my 3" axle nut socket is on order)

Unfortunately the driver's side is really bad! There is a huge amount of movement and to make matters worse, the spindle threads must be stripped where the inner nut is. The lock ring will spin and I could turn the inner nut by hand. I started tightening it but it just kept turning. The outer nut is very tight. I could turn it with a hammer and chisel but for having no bearing tension on it I should be able to turn it by hand.

Thank you to everyone for throwing out ideas and leading me to the real problem. Had I not made the tight turn before parking the truck and noticed the axle misalignment I would not have posted the question and not known I had a major problem. Like they say "ignorance is bliss".

I've only had the truck 5 days and had not gotten to drive it since bringing it home. Now it is out of commission. I pretty much maxed out my budget buying the truck so now the big question. How hard is it to find the whole spindle assembly and how expensive are they? I am hoping that since this is a part no longer used when a deuce is bobbed that maybe there are some out there that are not too expensive.

I'm trying not to be too discouraged. I knew these were old trucks and things like this can happen but I guess I wasn't prepared for a show stopper the first week. Hopefully others will learn from my experience and add this very simple check to their list of things to look for.

Unfortunately this isn't an easy item to spot on a normal inspection.

Unless you are willing to jack the truck up, as you just did.


Don't be too discouraged!

Shouldn't be too difficult to fix!

Get it torn apart & see how bad it is before you spend a bunch of $$ on parts.


Suggest you start a new thread asking for rear axle spindle sources. OF COURSE you can check the usual retail suppliers, but as you said there are bound to be quite a few just laying around from Bobbed Conversions!!

& OF COURSE consider distance & shipping for any BIG parts!
(I've been "BITTEN" more than once by a "good deal" on an item, only to discover later that I spent more on it with shipping than if I'd just bought one locally!!)

Hey Happyland,

I know of quite a few spring seats here in OKC. I wiil round up a couple and get them to you.

Don't want a fellow SS to be out of commission....

Warthog