CDL or no CDL? Wondering about what you have.....

Deuce-bigalo · Apr 14, 2005

Howdy all!

As I have been looking for a MV surplus, I have been drawn more and more to the 5T's. If your not using this for commercial purposes, are you still required to carry a CDL to drive them? When you have picked yours up did you already have your CDL or did you drive your new truck home and then get your CDL? Just some curious questions and thoughts about how other states operate!

Thanks!

John

rmgill · Apr 14, 2005

I have a Non-Commercial Drivers Licenese that covers Class B and A trucks, (Its a class A). But, the current opinion of the Ga DMVS is that my truck is "commercial based on size". This differs with what the Feds say which is that it's not commercial and that Federal Law does not require a Commercial Drivers license to comply with the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Act.

At this point I'm counting on the Cop to 1. Not care because it's military and 2. See my side of it. If it goes to court, I'd argue that the DMVS should class it as a Recreational vehicle because they fail to define it.

I had a bill pending in the State Legislature but that's dead until next session because the DMVS delayed things until we met and talked it out. They proposed some changes and we met in the middle. It just didn't have enough time to get through the House for a floor vote.

So for now, I stay in a gray area and take my chances with the DMVS.

Deuce-bigalo · Apr 14, 2005

That was where my question originated from. If it's Gov. Surplus and technically a MV, you fall under Federal regulation or State when you purchase it and it becomes Demil'd. If you have a 5T and, say for example, use it to move your stuff from one home to the other, does that mean it's private non commercial use or you must have a CDL? If it's not being used for profit commercial and yet is over the 26k GVW regardless of use does it have to have a CDL? Hmmmm - I will have to check into AZ statutes and laws. I would much prefer the 5T and a 2.5T rather than just a 2.5T. Have you been stopped before or hassled at all? I wouldn't think so, and about the only time you'd be able to get popped for speeding is in a school zone as the top speed I understand is 55mph. Here in Phoenix, the drivers drive 55 on the city streets and 85+ on the highways.

Thanks for the input though thus far! [thumbzup]

John

Deuce-bigalo · Apr 14, 2005

Ryan Montieth Gill said:
I have a Non-Commercial Drivers Licenese that covers Class B and A trucks, (Its a class A). But, the current opinion of the Ga DMVS is that my truck is "commercial based on size".

Question - did you have to do anything differently from a standard operators license for the Class A & B endorsements?

John

poppop · Apr 14, 2005

I am a farmer in Georgia and farmers are exempt from CDL's when hauling their own stuff and not for hire and then within 150 miles from home. But South Carolina which is 50 miles from here does not allow that in their state so i am taking a risk if I drive there. Something most folks don't know is even my 98 Chevrolot one ton requires a CDL when I hook my 20K trailer to it. I got waved into a check point a couple months ago hauling a junk Mack tractor to the farm for parts. The DOT man was not happy with my load and asked where I was taking this jewel. As I handed him my licence and insurance I told him I was a farmer and this was a parts truck. He handed my papers back without looking at them and said Git on down the road, i don't need to check you. I took him at his word and much releaved, got on down the road.

Deuce-bigalo · Apr 14, 2005

Well, I just wonder how it is here too. I just don't know where to check into this because I am worried about just going down to the local DMV and asking any of the counter help - I wouldn't think they are 100% about Demil MV 26k and up. Just going to have to be cautious about who I speak to and take everything with a grain of salt till I know for sure the person I'm speaking with is qualified enough to take their word for gold!

John

Elwenil · Apr 14, 2005

This whole deal just irritates the hell out of me. If you call the Federal DOT, they clearly state that you can drive a semi, and not need a CDL of anykind as long as you are not using it to haul commercial cargo for profit. Basically what it boils down to is that the states would lose a crap load of money in DMV and licensing fees if they did it the way they are supposed to, so they just play dumb. I can't believe the MVPA or somebody hasn't raised enough hell about this situation. About the only thing they can really fuss about is if the vehicle has true air brakes. Then they should require an air brake endorsement. It really makes no difference to me, since I have a Class A CDL with tanker, HAZMAT, and triple/double endorsements, so I can drive just about anything on the road. What irritates me is the extra cost of tags and fees that the DMVs want to add onto what is basically a collectable vehicle, reguardless of size. When I talked to the Federal DOT the guy just sounded real tired of answering the questions I had. He said he got it all the time, and had no idea what the individual states are trying to pull. He said he guessed that most states didn't know what to classify the truck as, since there was no set rule, so they group it with whatever it looks like. I don't mind paying a little more to drive it because it has an extra axle, but I don't want to have to pay like it's a road tractor and all the insurance and taxes that go a long with those. Grrrr...

Dieselsmoke · Apr 14, 2005

The Federal standard requires States to issue a CDL to drivers according to the following license classifications:

Class A -- Any combination of vehicles with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.

Class B -- Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

Class C -- Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.

Elwenil · Apr 14, 2005

The full text is this:

dot.gov said:
THE DRIVER

Drivers have been required to have a CDL in order to drive a CMV since April 1, 1992.

The Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) has developed and issued standards for testing and licensing CMV drivers. Among other things, the standards require States to issue CDLs to their CMV drivers only after the driver passes knowledge and skills tests administered by the State related to the type of vehicle to be operated. [color=red>Drivers]:

Classes of License:

The Federal standard requires States to issue a CDL to drivers according to the following license classifications:

Class A -- Any combination of vehicles with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.

Class B -- Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

Class C -- Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.

CMV, meaninf Commercial Motor Vehicle. The definition of CMV is:

dot.gov said:

A commercial motor vehicle is any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in <FONT color=red>interstate commerce[/color] to transport passengers or property when the vehicle: (1) has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) or gross combination weight rating (GCWR)—or a gross vehicle weight (GVW) or gross combination weight (GCW)—of 4,536 kilograms (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or (2) is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers, including the driver, for compensation; or (3) is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, whether or not it is used to transport passengers for compensation; or (4) is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, Subtitle B, Chapter I, Subchapter C.

Again, if you are not hauling cargo for money, the other regulations do not apply. I think the problem here is that the State and Federal Governments think that you need a special license to drive a large heavy vehicle. I agree, the differences in how they brake and handle are very good reasons to have special knowledge and training to drive them. However the State Governments seem to think that it all is commercial, be it a road tractor with a 53' van trailer or a Deuce used on the weekends or for fun. The laws that govern these vehicles need a serious revamp. Why do 70 year old men get to drive a huge RV on a normal license when they are such a hazard on the roads and have no idea how to drive a large heavy vehicle? Why do most states think that because your truck weighs "X" amount and has an extra axle, that you are automatically supposed to pay the same as a guy who runs cargo for money? If the Feds don't require you to run a fuel sticker and all the other BS that goes along with a real CMV, then why do the state and local governments?

Click to expand...

[/quote]

rmgill · Apr 15, 2005

The "In Commerce" bit is key.

Say you're into horses and have a small farm but you're not in business doing it. You go to a horse show with a 12,000 lb Trailer and win money. Is that commerce. The Federal Motor CArrier Safety Administration says NO! To be considered commercial, the income (or loss) has to be declared as a business expense. Drive your MV to a show and win prize money, you get money for your task, but it's not in Furtherance of a Commercial Enterprise.

From the regulatory guidance:
<cite>Question 21: Does the exemption in 390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?</cite>

<cite>Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.</cite>

An RV used for commercial purposes (Ads on the side) must be operated with a CDL. The bed and toilet do not make it non-commercial. A Class A Semi-tractor and Trailer used for personal use (Vintage Power events) not used for commerce is non-commercial and as such does not require a CDL per the Federal Regulations. Haul a load for pay however and you've crossed into commercial territory.

Now, that said, States can be more strict but are more likely confused on the exact fine details of the Federal Laws. The Fed I spoke with said as much in fact. Georgia is one that is fuzzy on the subject. Our exemptions from CDL licenses are RVs, Emergency Vehicles, Farm Trucks and Military Vehicles (Operated by the military). The Federal agent at the FMCSA that I spoke to on this said that Georgia was wrong to define it according to equipment and that the defining line should be stated as "in Commerce", technically, the RV description as the Ga DMVS currently interprets it is in violation of the Federal Statues if they exclude a Commercially operated RV used for a business venture (say for an advertising campaign). The nice thing is that the Georgia code section in question does not define what Recreational Vehicle is. So until I manage to get the law changed next year, I'll use this argument as a backup in court. If I can, I'll get a FMCSA rep to appear in court to back me up, they've unequivocally stated that I am correct in my understanding of the Federal Laws and by virtue of the requirement for states to comply with Federal laws for Federal Highway Funding, then so must the states comply with the federal minimum.

So, the Feds say, if it's used In-Commerce then it must be operated with a CDL. If it's not used in Commerce, then they say it does't have to be operated with a CDL. Many states laws specifically make this clarification. Some states do not.

rmgill · Apr 15, 2005

Deuce-bigalo said:
Ryan Montieth Gill said:

I have a Non-Commercial Drivers Licenese that covers Class B and A trucks, (Its a class A). But, the current opinion of the Ga DMVS is that my truck is "commercial based on size".

Click to expand...

Question - did you have to do anything differently from a standard operators license for the Class A & B endorsements?

John

It'll depend on your state's licensing requirements. Georgia itself has a more lax test for the Non-Commercial Class A and B trucks than the big CDL tests. I did a quick search at http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ and found the out's for you. Talk to the DMVS to be sure, you might have to study the regs and explain it to them. I had to argue with some of the DMVS people over several visits (up to and including getting a letter from the Georgia Attorney General's office) to prove to them that I could in fact obtain a Non-Commercial Class A or B license. They kept telling me I had to be a farmer, Fireman or Military driver. The Georgia law in that particular area said "Any resident over the age of 18 may apply". So it took a bit of time :boxer: but they came around and gave me the license.

First, I'm not a lawyer so its up to you to deal with the legal alligators. Now, Arizona defines Trucks the same as everyone else does now. Class A, B, C, etc. They exempt Class A and B sized vehicles if you tag them historical and don't use them commercially. You have to have them enter the GVW as ZERO. You'll have to find out if you can register an MV as historic, but I suspect you can.

Code:

[b]28-3101. Drivers License Classes[/b]
C. A commercial driver license is not required to operate a vehicle described in  subsection A, paragraph 1, 2 or 3 of this section if the vehicle has been issued a historic vehicle license plate pursuant to section 28-2484 and the department provides in  the vehicle registration record both of the following:

1. That the vehicle is classified as a noncommercial vehicle and may not be used as  a commercial vehicle.

2. The vehicle's gross vehicle weight is entered as zero.

See:
28-3101 Drivers license classes
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/28/03101.htm&Title=28&DocType=ARS
28-2484 Historic Plates
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/28/02484.htm&Title=28&DocType=ARS

Deuce-bigalo · Apr 16, 2005

Wow - thanks Ryan - you have been a huge help. I checked into some searches but never found exactly what you provided. I, not being a MV owner yet, did not want to have to get a cDL just for the MV sake. However, I see that you have had experience in what you've personally dealt with in GA - so I appreciate you giving up some time to explain the bottom line. I was always told that regardless of use, if it's over 26,001 lbs then you need a CDL. That to me seemed ridiculous. I will arm myself with this knowledge and pursue my desires on the 5T.

Thanks again and I hope to stay in touch. Your a very knowledgable and great asset to the board!! Welcome if I have not said so already!!

John

rmgill · Apr 16, 2005

Deuce-bigalo said:
Wow - thanks Ryan - you have been a huge help. I checked into some searches but never found exactly what you provided. I, not being a MV owner yet, did not want to have to get a cDL just for the MV sake. However, I see that you have had experience in what you've personally dealt with in GA - so I appreciate you giving up some time to explain the bottom line. I was always told that regardless of use, if it's over 26,001 lbs then you need a CDL. That to me seemed ridiculous. I will arm myself with this knowledge and pursue my desires on the 5T.

Thanks again and I hope to stay in touch. Your a very knowledgable and great asset to the board!! Welcome if I have not said so already!!

John

You might have to pester the living hell out of your Drivers License place to get the Non-Commercial Class B for the 5 ton. Go ahead and get the Class A if you can. That allows you to use the 5 ton as it was intended. ie, use the 30,000 lb pintle hitch to tow something stalwart that won't fit in the bed. Like a Deuce you're going to work on later.

In my case it took a good bit of wrguing on the phone, writing letters and pouring over the law before I finally got the beauractrats to understand that the law said A and their guide book/procedure book said B. :deal: In your case you'll have to print out the code and read it. Then read it again, then look at the other code sections. Then read it again. Sure, it's like bad stereo instructions, but you'll save money on the lawyer. In my case, I got so versed in Ga law that I was quoting it to lawyers and they were raising their eyebrows because I knew the code sections off the top of my head.

Keep at it. Don't be afraid to ask a lawyer.

Motownmike · Apr 17, 2005

John,
I'd worry more about getting insurance for the 5 ton. I went through hell doing that and it still cost me 800 a year just for liability.

The insurance policy is written as " commercial for personal use" from Farm Bureau, no one else would touch anything over 10k empty

weight.

Getting the VIN number issued was a major pain in the butt as well. You will need quite a bit of patience and determination to deal

with all of the hassles that will come your way in your quest to license and drive a 5 ton or greater MV. Some states are much easier than others.

Michigan was ok to me but it took me over 3 months to get it licensed for the road. I was able to elect the GVW of the vehicle so I

went with 26k to keep it legal for many of the two track black-top roads. It is registered as a "utility vehicle"

Kind of funny the empty weight is 19,700! Oh the plates cost about 400 dollars if I remember correctly.

This has to be the most expensive per mile vehicle I have ever owned but I still want to keep it! So be forwarned and forearmed check out the

insurance issue first of all.

rmgill · Apr 18, 2005

5 ton mike said:
John,
I'd worry more about getting insurance for the 5 ton. I went through hell doing that and it still cost me 800 a year just for liability.

The insurance policy is written as " commercial for personal use" from Farm Bureau, no one else would touch anything over 10k empty

weight.

Getting the VIN number issued was a major pain in the butt as well. You will need quite a bit of patience and determination to deal

with all of the hassles that will come your way in your quest to license and drive a 5 ton or greater MV. Some states are much easier than others.

Michigan was ok to me but it took me over 3 months to get it licensed for the road. I was able to elect the GVW of the vehicle so I

went with 26k to keep it legal for many of the two track black-top roads. It is registered as a "utility vehicle"

Kind of funny the empty weight is 19,700! Oh the plates cost about 400 dollars if I remember correctly.

This has to be the most expensive per mile vehicle I have ever owned but I still want to keep it! So be forwarned and forearmed check out the

insurance issue first of all.

Gulfway wrote me a policy for my 5 ton no problem. The DMVS required that I have a cop verify the vin and sign a form which was done at Ted Hils' place. And the Commercial Tag offic e gave me a Collector plate when they saw what kind of truck it was and when I assured them I wouldn't be using it for commercial purposes.

Deuce-bigalo · Apr 20, 2005

Well, personally I think the trouble would be worth it for the fact of having a 5T - I just dig that monster, I want to find a decent 5T cargo or whatever may be available. I also am going to be looking for a little brother (2.5T) and then start maybe doing some additions to the family! Thanks for all the input guys, your all a great bunch and I have now found ammo for the mental weapon I will be unleashing if trouble comes in at the DMV!!

John

DaveP · Apr 21, 2005

I wish you all could have seen the look of confusion on my insurance agents face when i told her i wanted to insure a AM GENERAL dump. to my surprize and hers they found a listing for it . $260 for 6 mo. i didnt think that was to bad. also i buy a farm/log plate. here in MI it cost $14 per ton of tare wt. for 12 mo. i run tractor trailer for a living so my CDL A,H license covers it.

Deuce-bigalo · Apr 26, 2005

Sounds sweet NMI. I will kepp you all posted about my progress to the M813 or whatever 5T I find to keep!

John

codedsolutions · May 6, 2005

Here in colorado the best way to get around all the CDL bullsh%t is to register as a farm truck. They don't seem to care about size/weight for farm except they tax you more for higher GVWR. I registered a 25k GVWR chevy c70 for about 100 bucks. Non-farm would have been $300+. My insurance runs about 15 bucks a month.

fuzzyalex · May 6, 2005

My experience, here in Colorado with my M211, was lengthy (had to get three different temporary plates from three different DMV's to get it home)! The Motor Vehicle (plates) people tried to tell me that the truck did not exist! At the end of it all, there was ALOT of wasted time to get my vehicle registered, but I finally got it regestered with Recreational Truck plates. I was hassled for requesting Farm plates because apparently 40 acres is not large enough to farm and I could not prove that I used my land in such a manner, so I was risking all sorts of "legal" stuff if I was pulled over. The Recreational Truck plates were just a little more and I can drive the truck wherever, whenever. The insurance was not so bad (through State Farm Ins.), I told them I did not intend on using on road much so my monthly bill is around $25. While they did not know what it was either, I drove it down to their office where they took a few pictures and wrote down all the info from the Data Plates.
I would plan on spending a day at the DMV and doing some research into the types of plates available (there must be a thousand variations) and what the cost and other factors are.

CDL or no CDL? Wondering about what you have.....

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