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Cummins swap question

bossler

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Im a new member here, so please bear with me. I have been looking into cummins conversions for the m35, but still have many questions. Is the 12valve turbo any easier to install than the 24valve turbo? Also does the engine bolt up to the stock engine mounts, or must new ones be made? What is done about all of the sensors that will no longer be hooked up on the deuce? My biggest concern is compatibility. I would like to run the stock tranny and transfer case. First of all, can these stock parts handle the added power? Will the engine bolt up to the stock tranny or must modifications be done here as well. Also I was wondering how long a project like this is estimated to take to accomplish. Thanks for your time,
Matt
 

hot rod deuce

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Howdy. There are many questions there that i will try to answer but may not get them all the first time. I put a 1997 195 HP 5.9 with air to air and a P-7100 pump in my truck and its like a whole new rig. feels like twice the power and i had the herc running 1200 on the pyro with like 15 pounds of boost

First off Do you have and Industrial Or Dodge motor? The industrial is much cheaper to use because it will likely have a bell houseing that will bolt right on to the small SAE#3 on the tranny. Mounts will need to be changed unless you stumble upon the right bell but there are as many as there are bolt sizes.



(this is a hunch of mine, that if you had a #2 bell you may not need mounts as i think the mounts are standard location on bell #'s IE: #2 bells have the same dimensions but im not sure gota look)

12 valve will probably be easier due to lack of electo's

and industrial motor is very common in 24 volt as well if you dont plan on changing over to 12 like i did. It was cheaper than a starter and alternantor
 

M543A2

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I am just curious here! Do you really gain power and torque with a 360 CID Cummins engine replacing a 478 cubic inch engine built like a tank so to say? I have a set up Dodge Cummins in my one ton, and I have several LDS 465's, one in particular set up my son owns. I am a member of the TDR Dodge registry, and have been active in truck pulling with them, so I know they can be made to make power. Mine has two stage LP injection ahead of the turbo plus other internal and external modifications, and it really brings it to life. My point is, I have undying loyalty to the 5.9 Cummins, but I do not see the advantage of going to the trouble of putting it in a truck where the bottom end torque is so important. The rotating mass in the 478 is so much greater than the 5.9 that I would think it would be a sacrifice to change. My son's set up M35 will easily dust Ford power strokes, GM Duramax, and 5.9's that are not really set up. If we add an LP kit to it, I am sure it will turn tires on pavement. What we really need are Allisons behind them so you just get the engine in boost and torque range and keep pulling gears without letting boost drop! I also thought the 5.9 industrial motor and the Dodge motor were the same components except for externals, which is why they are so tough. Are they different internally? Our old saying from drag racing and pulling is "There ain't no substitute for cubic inches"! Not that will have a long, reliable life anyway.
 

Jones

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Size, in this rare instance, doesn't matter. Look at the power some of the built-up hondas and the like put out. In the case of the multifueler, it was built to be, among other things, bullet-proof... but all that extra metal eats horsepower to run itself. The reason to consider tha 12 valve over the 24 is the lack of a lot of electronic controls and on-board computer. The less gadgets, the less to go wrong.
Just my 2cents.
 

hot rod deuce

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I could not have said it better my self!! He may be right inthat it may lack some VERY low end grunt but it makes up for it in efficency. Not to mention the herc was devised in the 1960's
A "C" series cummins would be nice, they are around 500 CI but they are hard to find and at around 7000 for a used take out, well it was outa my ballpark. The 5.9 is all the power needed to break stuff so i call it good. It isnt the set up if you plan to load it down the full 23,000 and put a trailer on, but the herc would have its hands full at that too i think
 

Dieselsmoke

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It's so easy to get reliable power out of the 5.9. I've got a truck sitting here in the shop that put out 675 ponies at the rear wheels and is a daily driver and tows the guys backhoe regularly.
 

Jones

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I'm a died-in-the-wool CTD fan. The ONLY problem I've ever heard about is the the timing case locating pin working it's way out and doing some damage but it's a fix that's pretty simple and cheap if you do your own work. Never had it happen to me personally and that's with around 700K combined miles amongst all the Cummins I've owned/operated.
 

bossler

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How long does it take to swap out the multifuel for the 5.9 cummins? Also is there any advantage as far as fuel economy goes?
 

Jones

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Hmmm, How fast can you twist a wrench?
It depends on a number of things. What kind of shop area do you have available, tools on hand, number of people helping or getting in the way, etc.
Motor mounts will need to be fabricated, transmission adaption, electronics (12v Cummins vs. 24v deuce) all are things that will come into the mix. Not an impossible job, but not something you should plan on having done in a week or so.
 

Wyattearp

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Hey there M543A2 nice to have another TDR member aboard with us here on SS. I also contemplated the cummins swap, the 12 valver would be the ideal choice where as the 24V has all the electronics(darn computers). With the 12V engine you can turn it up to unreal numbers for HP and torque, some that drag pull with them are cranking out 500-700 hp plus well over 1000lb torq. But also you run into finding a bell housing to fit or fabing up mounting brackets, it would be lighter on the front end by several hundred pounds also...
The 12V engines are coming harder to find and come by to.
 

clinto

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Dieselsmoke said:
Don't worry about bellhousings, just get the 6 speed out of a dodge to go along with it.
What about PTO provisions? And would the shifter come out in the right place?
 

hot rod deuce

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or just say forget one gear and use the stock bell from an industrial motor that can be had for less than 200 bucks and bolt it up to the 5 speed.....Or at least thats what i did that way the PTO works as good as it did
 

Wyattearp

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Hmmmm so this can be done... (brainstorm) Coming on.... where would one pick up a bellhousing from an industrial engine, any places in particular? With that the cummins will bolt right up in the engine bay?
 

hot rod deuce

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oh no its no bolt in! the bell housing bolts up. the clutch is up to you, a 13" clutch in a #3 bell is a hard thing to find a flywheel for. I have the part numbers but when i got mine i had three truck shops looking for a week and they all found the same one. The one i got happend to be used as a drive flange rather than an actual flywheel so it was like new(that was a well needed uplifting of my spirit) i had to give 300 bucks for that but a new one from cummins after a long chat with one of the engineers in northern Mn. to get the part numbers was like 900 plus big ones! At that point i was going cut one out of a scrap of 1" t-1 (100,000 LB Steel) then I needed to go find a clutch for a fly wheel i had no clue what the app. was...well i got those part numbers now too. The other option was to re drill the flywheel, but i opted the 400 bucks for a new clutch so i knew what i had. Had to make a custom pilot brearing (no big deal). after a little purswading the throw out bearing i had a functional clutch....Motor mounts are another story, but the most interesting part has to be trying to get AIR and a pump for the Hydo powersteering with no v belts. That was another 100 hours of research and chatting with engineers to mary a bendx 501 compresor onto the 5.9's accesorie gear. You could probably buy that part but there again where do you look? the part numbers go in number order at the truck shops so if you happen to find one gear the other is probably 300 boxes away. So i cut a 4 degree taper on the gear and added a 1/4 inch key at the same taper. so i now have a 12.5 CFM (stock is like 4) compresor with a cute little vein pump on the back all hung on the accesorie drive just like the brand new trucks do. Dont forget the after cooler. If you are going to run air to air a dodge one wont work, they are short and fat and the deuce has a tall skinney slot. There again i got lucky because the bus had a tall skinney one. Still took a fair amount of chopping to make it all fit and look factory. I highly sugest power steering while you are at it as well.
 

hot rod deuce

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the best bet and cheapest is an industrial motor by far, air to water after coolers and 24 volt are common and will most likely have the right bell....
 

Jones

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Front motor mount can be a snap too. Look to truck wrecking yards for one off of a CTD/Freightliner or CTD/Ford set-up. Hint: Wrecked FedEx delivery vans, bread trucks, etc. among others use it. Bolts to the front, not sides, of the engine and has a single bolt hole in the bottom of it's "U" shape (Ford set-up has two side by side). This might be another source for your bell housing too.
Happy scrounging.
 

M543A2

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To Pappa G about how much tweaking the 478 will take. I think my son and I will be finding out. We intend to add two stage LP and look into fogger injectors to get quicker more efficient fuel burn. We might find a limitation with the injection pump, but then one off a White tractor matched to their injectors might be a good plan. It will be fun to experiment as all of us guys like to do! Reliability will not be affected in any way I can see. Even with my undying faith in the 5.9 Cummins, I still suspect we can make a 478 come on line very strong. My experience with trucks and tractors is that a bigger engine working at less load factor will last longer than a smaller engine pushed higher to get the same torque and power.
It will be an interesting experiment! Guess that is why we all do what we do-try and learn and share. I really enjoy reading you fellow's comments.
One problem with the 5.9 is the 350 hp limitation of the stock clutch. It gets real expensive when you build a clutch to take power over that range. I do not expect to be limited by the 478 clutch. If there is a problem, we will add heavier springs to the stock pressure plate, which one cannot do with the stock Cummins clutch. I put Mopar Hemi springs in a pressure plate for a Massey 1100 tractor I put a 478 GMC V6 in, which doubled the original tractor hp, and it works fine.
 

hot rod deuce

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i used the kind of mount you speek of, BUT it is at a lower hight inthe frame in relation the the crank shaft and it uses only one bolt, so your up for a new cross member. not a big deal


the clutch in the 478 is just a 13" and thats the same thing thats in the dodge truck. A13" clutch is a 13" clutch so as far a power we are both limited the by the clutch untill i get the 18 speed with dual disc. The 478 will last longer in theory like you say but i dont know bout you but if mine lasts 25,000 miles thats good an plenty the next thing one needs to remember is that the herc is made out of cheaper iron than the cummins. I would put money on a 210 HP 5.9 out lasting a 210 HP 478 LDS 5 ton motor. Just because of better materials and technology
 
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