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Any chemists on board?

andyindy

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My buddy has access to some compressor crankcase oil (10 W), BUT, it is contaminated with ammonia. He says it has been setting about 5 yrs in a warehouse and still smells strongly of ammonia.Would areation release it to atmosphere? Filter it? I know ammonia is corrosive, so unless I could get it 100% cleaned up, I wouldn't want to use it as deuce fuel. Heck, would it even be safe to burn in shop heater?
Andy........
 

doghead

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Ammonia is very deadly, just forget it!:wink:

not a chemist, just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express
 
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dc3coyote

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Ammonia is VERY DEADLY!!!!!!!! It can be evaporated with heat, but it is definatley not worth it, unless it is boiled then nuetralized. It will always be deadly. I would never even consider using it in my trucks, period. I can not say it enough, let that stuff sit, and dispose of it in a safe manner.
I am not a chemist, but I do have tons of Hazmat, and CBR experience.
And of course Merry Christmas
 

m35tech

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This is the same thing with certain types of atf fluid like the Ford type F it contains high amounts of silicone and other chemicals that you would not want to run in your engine
 

bgekky3

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia

As a fuel
Ammonia was used during World War II to power buses in Belgium, and in engine and solar energy applications prior to 1900. Liquid ammonia was used as the fuel of the rocket airplane, the X-15. Although not as powerful as other fuels, it left no soot in the reusable rocket engine and its density approximately matches that for the oxidizer, liquid oxygen, which simplified the aircraft's design.

[edit] As a vehicle fuel

Ammonia is proposed as a practical and clean alternative to fossil fuel for internal combustion engines[22]. The biggest obstacle is the enormous increase in production required since present production, although the second most produced chemical, is a very small fraction of world petroleum usage. Ammonia has no more serious issues, as an alternative vehicle fuel compared to petrol or diesel, including toxicity, flammability, use in engines, pollution, energy density [23][24].It does requires twice the storage volume of petrol/diesel. It can run in existing engines. It is already widely produced and distributed, and can be manufactured from renewable energy sources, coal or nuclear power. The main down side is that overall it is significantly less efficient than batteries. The 60 MW Rjukan dam in Telemark Norway, was producing ammonia via electrolysis of water for many years from 1913 producing fertilizer for much of Europe. Ammonia is already produced, transported and stored on a vast scale. In combination with coal gas it was used to run 20 buses on 8 routes covering many tens of thousands of miles with no injuries or engine damage.[25]It can be used in existing engines with only minor modifications to carburetors / injectors. If produced from coal, the CO2 can be readily sequestrated.[26][27] (the combustion products are nitrogen and water). In 1981 a Canadian company converted a 1981 Chevrolet Impala to operate using ammonia as fuel.[28][29] The use of ammonia as fuel continues to be discussed.[30] There are prototype solid state processes to use electricity to convert nitrogen and water directly to ammonia, which are claimed to be cheaper, more efficient and capable of much smaller scale application ie to otherwise stranded assets such as remote wind turbines.[31]
The calorific value of ammonia is 22.5 MJ/kg (9690 BTU/lb) which is about half that of diesel. In a normal engine, in which the water vapor is not condensed, the calorific value of ammonia will be about 21% less than this figure.

I have a BS in Chemistry, but I don't work in my field so I forgot more than I ever learned.

You have to find out what kind of ammonia was in the oil or what compounds it formed in the oil. If you don't have access to a chromatograph that would be difficult.

The combustion of ammonia yields oxides of nitrogen and water.

There is a reason it is sitting in a warehouse. You could end up killing yourself with the exhaust. There is probably some federal regulation about burning chemical waste as a motor vehicle fuel too. There are also regs on the transportation and storage of hazardous materials.
 

gringeltaube

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Compressor oil for fuel

From an article by EPA: Hazards of Ammonia Releases….

“An important property of ammonia is its pungent
odor. Odor threshold varies with the individual
but ammonia can be usually detected at concentra-
tions in the range of about 5 ppm to 50 ppm.
Concentrations above about 100 ppm are uncom-
fortable to most people; concentrations in the
range of 300 to 500 ppm will cause people to leave
the area immediately.
……….
……….
The American Industrial Hygiene Association
(AIHA) has developed Emergency Response
Planning Guidelines (ERPGs) for a number of
substances to assist in planning for catastrophic
releases to the community. The ERPG-2 repre-
sents the concentration below which it is believed
nearly all individuals could be exposed for up to
one hour without irreversible or serious health
effects. The ERPG-2 for ammonia is 200 ppm.
……….”

Ammonia is readily soluble in water but only “mixes” with oil under pressure, with most of it rapidly releasing into the atmosphere once put and stored in a vented tank. Most probably what remains in that oil are only traces but still enough to be detected with a sound nose, for a long time.
I don’t see any real hazard here (either environmental or personal during handling) since it only takes minimum concentrations to alert and make you stay away! (personally I have been working around ammonia refrigerating systems for almost 30 years, doing maintenance and repairs and often exposed to uncomfortable relatively high concentrations…. still alive and sound…!)

So if I had access to significant qtys. here I would not hesitate using this "contaminated" oil as fuel in an engine like our Multifuel, either pure or mixed with diesel in any proportion. And .... I would keep my mouth shut... !


As for corrosion problems, ammonia as a gas (NH3) is known to be extremely corrosive on the tissue of the respiratory tract. But …. it can be considered inert to most of the metal parts involved in our common fuel system, actually its presence combined with water will prevent corrosion in the fuel tank!
For references see: http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/pubs/occup-travail/compli-conform/ammonia-ammoniac-eng.php
Also http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1319199




Just my 2cents

G.
 

andyindy

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I'm impressed, as usual!!!!!!!!

At the collective knowlege and insight of this forum!!!! I think I'll do a little reading on all the material you have provided. It's hard to pass up 6 totes of potential fuel, but it's not worth the risk of health hazards or ruining good equiptment, not to mention polluting our common air supply! As far as not talking to much, that's another insurmountable problem for me:roll:!!!!!! LOL!!!
As a side note,if you are ever in a situation where you are using a tape measure for semi accurate readings IE 1/4 or 1/8's NEVER, EVER GIVE DOC FARMALL THE SMART END OF THE TAPE. Were talking 6 in. here!! He tried to save face by explaining he cut it off twice, but it was still to short:wink:!!
Thank's for all the input!!
Andy...........
 

Mt_Man

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What about putting an bubbler to aerate the oil and get it to off gas it? Thinking weighted hose and a valve with a compressor or a fish tank bubbler in one bung of a 55gal drum cheers
 

goldneagle

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What about putting an bubbler to aerate the oil and get it to off gas it? Thinking weighted hose and a valve with a compressor or a fish tank bubbler in one bung of a 55gal drum cheers
Are you out of your mind? Doghead and others just stated that Ammonia gas is very deadly. Are you trying to kill someone?
 

Hard Head

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You will do more damage to your health and pocket than the price of just buying some good ole diesel fuel. To neutralize Ammonia you need to add acid like HCL around 35% w/v to convert ammonia to a chloride. This is primarily done to extract it or dispose of it. You don't want to burn this mess! Just a FYI, this is treated as a hazardous waste and you could potentially be fined for trying to treat and dispose of hazardous waste, especially this type and you can certainly be liable and liable in a big way. Fines can be in the 5-6 figure range if caught for illegal disposal. Walk away from this stuff! It is unusable for a motor oil now and needs to be disposed by a licensed hazardous waste disposal company.
 
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John S-B

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The only reason that Ammonia is not classified as a flammable is so that farmers don't have to go through as much regulation when they transport it. It does burn quite well once heated enough.
 
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