NJ seeks to ban MV's in state forests

Big Mike's Motor Pool · Aug 1, 2012

I'm not sure if any of you have heard of this, and if it hsa already been posted I do apoligize.
NJ wants to prohibit the use of military vehicles in state forests (humvees and M35's specifically stated in the bill). Their beleif is that all of us drive through the woods in bulldozer mode and leave a trail of destruction and beer cans behind. A specific area that is common to illeagal off roading in wharton state forest is the nest from which this egg started to hatch.
You can see the proposal here
[URL]http://www.nj.gov/dep/rules/proposals/20120716a.pdfhttp://www.nj.gov/dep/rules/proposals/20120716a.pdf[/URL]

Many of us who live in wooded areas, and even those of us who dont, do enjoy driving our trucks through the woods. I use my truck quite often to cruise through the woods. I know alot of guys from this forum often to partake in trips to the new jersey pines for some cruisin so I figured Id bring it to your attention.

One of the other big problems with this that I see is that this law can be miscontrued and used to ticket us just for driving on the road, as some roadways and many near my house go thru state forests. I know the state park police that operate out of a station 1/4 mile from my house think Im part of the problem and are always harrasing me just because I drive an M35A2. They pull me over on state route 70 when they see me and tell me "its just to check paper work, and oh by the way, keep this junker outta my woods". State route 70 runs right smack thru a state forest. By the way the proposal wants to go, I will now be in violation for driving a legally registered and insured vehicle down a state highway since I am technically in state woods, and I can gaurantee that the park police will try and ticket me.

If you would like to leave comments to the state, here is a link.
NJDEP-Rules & Regulations-Comment on DEP Rulemaking

SteveKuhn · Aug 1, 2012

Well, I filled in the NJDEP comment form and then copied that text to my 2 Assembly and 1 Senate reps.

The rule is really written poorly and in a confused fashion. It would be easy to write a volume picking apart the lousy logic they use for justification of the ban.

They should get lots of comments picking it apart. I chose 4 brief points and made them. If enough people comment, all the sloppy thinking will get pointed out, they'll get plenty of examples as well as hearing the more glaring ones hit upon repeatedly.

Likewise, it behooves all of us to discourage crazy 6x6ing on state (or uninvited private) land that leads to damage, creates hazards, makes easy cell phone video fodder and leaves NDT prints behind.

I'll find out how it was received at least in part when I go to my chiropractor on Friday. He's one of the Assembly people.

Steve
in the People's Fun Police State of NJ

MtnDuece · Aug 1, 2012

That's bs next they will tell u what cereal to eat what clothes to wear and to sit down to pee. Where as a society do we the people draw the line Mabe we should mobleize the largest MV gathering in history and run them out of ticket stubs

rickf · Aug 1, 2012

Mudlord, what is your avatar? I have been traveling and wheeling the pines since the 60's. I have seen it all back there. I was good friends with chief Ranger Langdon In the 80's and he told me that the behavior was going to be the downfall of the wheelers. We used to have a couple of areas that we stuck to and we kept them clean, everyone sobered up before leaving and we stayed on the good side of the Rangers. Then the younger crowd came in and wanted to trash every place they went and they did trash it all. Trash everywhere, stolen and burned cars, people getting hurt and leaving the woods drunk and driving on the highway. You know the score. They threw everyone out. Once the budget cuts came in and they laid off most of the Rangers then people took advantage of it and started trashing the woods again. Not only that they make You Tube videos of it and taunt the Rangers with the videos. Not too smart wouldn't you say? There was a principle once called "Tread Lightly". I have no idea what happened to it but it vanished in NJ and so did wheeling. Look at what is happening out west, they are closing up area right and left. I can tell you the biggest problem in the woods and that is the horse people, They are money people and they generally have pull higher up, when a bunch of trucks comes screaming through and scares all the horses then they are going to complain and their complaints go high up. We used to shut everything down when the first vehicle spotted a horse and we did not start again until the horses were well past. That does not happen anymore. The more you complain and antagonize these people the worse it will get.

Rick

Tanner · Aug 1, 2012

The concept of 'Tread Lightly' died due to young punks with a burr in their arse buying Jeeps/trucks/4-wheelers & then using them to hoon & do damage/trash the areas that they rode in...

Screwed things up for those that self-policed & obeyed the rules.

Just an honest observation...

'Tanner'

SteveKuhn · Aug 1, 2012

My wife was a carriage driving competitor years back and used the state renovated railroad beds up around Sussex quite a bit. They've banned dirt bikes and motorized vehicles from them because of hazards to pedestrians and horse people. Joanne say that she never had trouble w/ the motorized crew because they'd give 'way and the like so the horses didn't freak. Guess not enough followed that kind of common sense and away they went.

I detest rules like this but I'm not sympathetic when people ruin it for others.

Steve

Varyag · Aug 1, 2012

I didn't know that there were so many HMMWVs out there to trash a specific park. There can't be that many 998s in the area.

Sounds more like Hummer bad, keep away then that particular model is doing that much damage.

i could also say, come to the PNW. Land is cheap, the traffic is light and the trails are the best.

SteveKuhn · Aug 1, 2012

I was just about to edit in that point - that if they're having a HumVee problem, it's likely the civilian versions doing it. Lots more of them. 'Course up around here they all seem to be well-waxed and have little stick figures of Daddy, Mommy, the 2.5 kiddees and the dog & cat on the rear window.

...Even if they do have a football field's worth of floods on a light bar and unscratched chrome winch.

Steve

islandguydon · Aug 1, 2012

This subject chaps my azz. You pay a fee for the license plate to drive anywhere you want in the good ole USA other than area 51. Is there an ORV requirement in NJ..? In Michigan you can get a 2012 ORV sticker and then you are permitted to go off road on any state land.

I have been pulled over in Bloomfield Hills before. I asked the cop " why are you impeding on my liberty's and freedoms guaranteed to me by the constitution"..?

He said I was speeding. I laughed my azz off and showed him the data plate and said Sorry try again. He did a safety check and I was gone down the road. I hope you find a solution to the NJ problem. I filled out the form. Good luck..! :driver:

rickf · Aug 1, 2012

tanner said:
the concept of 'tread lightly' died due to young punks with a burr in their arse buying jeeps/trucks/4-wheelers & then using them to hoon & do damage/trash the areas that they rode in...

Screwed things up for those that self-policed & obeyed the rules.

Just an honest observation...

'tanner'

bingo!!!

Srjeeper · Aug 1, 2012

My .02 on this....

I would like to weigh in here as both an Off Road enthusiast and a HMV owner & collector. Having been Off Roading for 5+ decades and collecting MV's for 3+, I've seen many changes take place in both camps. Some for the good (Thread Lightly) for one and the closing of State, Private lands & Off Road Parks for the not so good examples.

Most all these changes have come to pass because of a few inconsiderate folks being iresponsible when on the land of others. I'm sure no politician in NJ was just sitting around looking for a reason to make life miserable for some guy who happens to own a HMV. He had to have several valid reasons for even getting envolved in something like this to start with and I'm sure it came from those who's land has been missued or damaged.

That being said....we probably need look no further than some within our own hobby, that took it for granted they could ride in areas most others could not or would not attempt, and while doing so did damage.

How many times has there been post on this very site where a vehicle is stuck on someone's property and now they can't get it out? I happen to own a good bit of both wooded & pasture land. If that happened on my property and that individual hadn't first asked permission....that vehicle would then 'belong to me'!

Not until they fixed up or paid to have the damage repaired and put back as it was, would 'they ever have any access to the vehicle.

To get all in a fluster at the politician is not the correct way to address the pending problem or legislation. Proper conduct, both in your vehicles, and your communication with the politicians & landowners will better serve both yourself and the hobby we all profess to love.

They apprently already have good reason to place restrictions of even bans on certain vehicle use. What needs to be done now is to give them a better reason not to impose sanctions.

2cents

wreckerman893 · Aug 1, 2012

I guess that's one reason ZiggyO packed his rucksack full of MV's and moved to Nebraska.

The short time I was there told me there was nothing worth going back for.

As long as the common sense people in any state allow the people who work for them (state and local officials) to trample on their rights they get exactly what they deserve.

The Second American Revolution is coming......like a runaway freight train.

SteveKuhn · Aug 2, 2012

Having been through proposed over the top restrictions on teaching dog training in NJ in a couple of flavors, it often traces back to one or two incidents that are picked up by a politician or bureaucrat and built into a statute or rule. The constituent is molified and made to feel important, the official has a reason to get publicity and/or curry favor, and pretty soon there's another redundant rule to micromanage the public's behavior.

In several of the instances where I got to know the details well, even the sponsors knew that there wasn't a snowball's chance of the statutes making it out of committee. Unfortunately, rules like this one can slide onto the books without much notice or consideration.

There's a big increase in the tendency to legislate through administrative rule making rather than the traditional legislative process. That way it's lower profile, quicker and easier. Most of the time the rules aren't needed because the infractions are covered under a broader rule.

An example: When I started driving, there was a violation for 'reckless driving'. The driver's ed teacher made it real clear that it was applied when you were driving stupidly and there wasn't a specific law against what you were doing. It carried a stiff fine. Now there's a rule against using a cell phone while driving. Seems to me that yakking on a cell phone and not paying attention was covered in the traffic rules about 50+ years ago, long before the cell phone was invented. It's reckless driving.

When one discovers this kind of rule being hatched, it's a very good idea to stomp on it. Then when you see a case that demonstrates the reason it was proposed, do what you can to get the drones causing the trouble to behave themselves.

I'm pretty sure that there are rules against drunken driving, playing chicken with horse & rider, plowing down trees, and the like. All they need to do is write 'em up under the rules they've got.

Steve

rickf · Aug 2, 2012

Keep in mind that I am a four wheeler in addition to being someone who wants to see the pinelands kept in a preserved state. The way things are headed that area is going to be turned into a wasteland because of the overabundance of 4WD vehicles and idiots driving them now. Everybody wants to tear some dirt up. And they ALL want to tear up virgin dirt. You guys out west do not comprehend the scope of this because of the size differences. The entire state of NJ will fit into one of your little off road parks and the pinelands are just a small area of NJ. So while I am totally bummed out that I cannot go out wheeling I can understand why. My 450 HP CJ-7 is just sitting in my back yard where it has been for years now. I was stopped and questioned not to long ago when cruising the woods in my M-151. No problems, he mostly wanted to look at the Mutt. He told me mostly what I have said here, just too much destruction. Say what you will about the laws and politicians, I hate them all also, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere or you will have nothing left. I used to take my daughter out with me four wheeling and I would tell her to look around and remember what she see's because it will be gone once she grows up. It is. I have pictures of the same areas over the last 40 years showing the destruction and if it kept up then the pinelands would be one giant gravel pit. I am sure that would suit some just fine but..............................

Rick

porkysplace · Aug 2, 2012

islandguydon said:
This subject chaps my azz. You pay a fee for the license plate to drive anywhere you want in the good ole USA other than area 51. Is there an ORV requirement in NJ..? In Michigan you can get a 2012 ORV sticker and then you are permitted to go off road on any state land.

I have been pulled over in Bloomfield Hills before. I asked the cop " why are you impeding on my liberty's and freedoms guaranteed to me by the constitution"..?

He said I was speeding. I laughed my azz off and showed him the data plate and said Sorry try again. He did a safety check and I was gone down the road. I hope you find a solution to the NJ problem. I filled out the form. Good luck..!

Don. if read deep into the ORV law here you are only allowed to use trails that have signs open to motorized vehicels . Up west of grayling they had to fence the parking areas around the tralhead parking for the ORV trails there. It seems the users couldn't keep from destroying the woods around the parking area .

It's problem across the country a handful of jerks with no respect for anything ruin it for everyone else.

quickfarms · Aug 2, 2012

It looks like things have not changed since I left new jersey a couple of decades ago. We used to run around the pine barrens and hated the holes that were dug by the trucks with the 40" or 44" mudders or swampers on them

Tanner · Aug 2, 2012

I'll remind all that the job of a politician is to create more laws in order to justify their job & paycheck as a politician.

'Tanner'

rickf · Aug 2, 2012

quickfarms said:
It looks like things have not changed since I left new jersey a couple of decades ago. We used to run around the pine barrens and hated the holes that were dug by the trucks with the 40" or 44" mudders or swampers on them

I had one of those trucks at one time, we would go to our favorite area and play and then cruise out. There was always some ahole that would back into a water filled hole and power brake it in two wheel drive and dig the hole out till he bottomed out. I came across a Ranger one night at 01:00 stuck in one of those holes. Needless to say he was not in a very good mood and even though I pulled him out I got the third degree. Couldn't really blame him. Stock Ford ranger in a 44 inch hole on a very normal passable road in middle of the night, I would be pissed if I had hit it with my truck on 44's! Someone did eventually turn the guy in who was doing it, with video, but too little too late. There were two private areas at one time but even one of them was shut down by the owner due to people getting hurt and cops getting involved. I don't know about the other one. It was a pretty rough place, not family family.

Rick

L1A1 · Aug 2, 2012

I have to agree with a lot of what's been posted on here so far. A lot of the trails west of me (& there used to be a lot of them) have been closed to motorized traffic. You're more then welcome on them on foot, but nothing motorized is allowed.

One of the reasons for this was all the idiots tearing everything up, general tomfoolery and dumping trash (enough aluminium cans to build a B25 and more appliances then Sears not to mention all the tires-sorry I don't have an analogy for that one). A small group has ruined it for everyone else which is how it always goes.
Matt

Big Mike's Motor Pool · Aug 2, 2012

rickf said:
Mudlord, what is your avatar? I have been traveling and wheeling the pines since the 60's. I have seen it all back there. I was good friends with chief Ranger Langdon In the 80's and he told me that the behavior was going to be the downfall of the wheelers. We used to have a couple of areas that we stuck to and we kept them clean, everyone sobered up before leaving and we stayed on the good side of the Rangers. Then the younger crowd came in and wanted to trash every place they went and they did trash it all. Trash everywhere, stolen and burned cars, people getting hurt and leaving the woods drunk and driving on the highway. You know the score. They threw everyone out. Once the budget cuts came in and they laid off most of the Rangers then people took advantage of it and started trashing the woods again. Not only that they make You Tube videos of it and taunt the Rangers with the videos. Not too smart wouldn't you say? There was a principle once called "Tread Lightly". I have no idea what happened to it but it vanished in NJ and so did wheeling. Look at what is happening out west, they are closing up area right and left. I can tell you the biggest problem in the woods and that is the horse people, They are money people and they generally have pull higher up, when a bunch of trucks comes screaming through and scares all the horses then they are going to complain and their complaints go high up. We used to shut everything down when the first vehicle spotted a horse and we did not start again until the horses were well past. That does not happen anymore. The more you complain and antagonize these people the worse it will get.

Rick

Rick, the pic of my avatar was out on a trail in whites boggs. I went out to rescue a friend of mine and sank upon trying to get infront of his truck to hook up. your definitely right about the rest of what you said. I been seeing this stuff happen since I was a kid.

NJ seeks to ban MV's in state forests

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