New Member/Western North Carolina RE: MEP 003A

Jimc said:

well the injectors are good and if he is getting fuel to the IP then its time to pull the pump. he said he was getting small squirts of fuel but no smoke. assuming the shut down solenoid is lifting and the throttle arm on the pump is coming up then thats the only thing left.

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I'm still wondering if he ever connected the injectors outside the head to observe good or no pressure from the IP...

I don't think he did. It is a pain to do and, based on past performance, he would have no reason to do so. I suspect there is still air in the system and that it was not adequately bled or solenoid is not staying up. He was going to check solenoid when wife got home to assist.
Jerry

Gentlemen:
Good morning! My bride joined me at the Generator (date night) last nite and she directed us through Jerry's thought process:

*she ran the primer, lit up the glow plugs for 60 seconds,cranked it while I observed, solenoid works fine, free movement, no drop, stays open with and without the screwdriver, cranks/no smoke, 3 tries

*so I cracked open the fuel line at the #1 injector, she cranked the starter, and I saw fuel/no air, tightened

*same procedure for other 3 injectors, encountered air at injectors 2,3,4, bubbling out in spurts with the IP pulse, when it seemed to run clear, I buttoned up each one, cranked it 2 more times (15 seconds each) no smoke could be there is still more air in the system?

* a little background check: the day before, after I installed the injectors and buttoned up the system, I pulled the IP spring and primed the system, cracking each fuel line @ the injectors, in sequence (1 -> 4), no air visible, re-installed the spring, torqued both nuts, primed, lit up the glow plugs for 60 sec. and attempted cranking 15 secs each time, resting a couple minutes between each attempt, good cranking/no smoke

I was a CAT trained mechanic at the proving grounds in Peoria, worked mainly on the big dozers D8's-D11's, we would tear them down to the frame and put the experimental components in, put 'em back together and send back out for another 5000 hours, if the engine had a problem we just yanked it and put another in its place and let the engine guys work on it. If I am missing something or doing it wrong, I am certainly open to suggestions. After all Jerry's hard work and attention to the injectors, it is hard to imagine that the injectors are the issue, and the IP seems to be pumping along, and the solenoid appears to be functioning correctly.

Just want to get it right and hear this thing purring again. Thanks again. ZeusDiesel

while cranking i would think you would see some white smoke or something if those injectors were firing. as one of the other guys said before, the pump may be pumping but it does have to be building atleast 1750 lbs in order to pop those injectors. you will need to pull an injector, hook it up outside the engine then crank it (be careful its aiming away from you). its either the pump or compression. one or the other and since it was running when you shut it down i would lean against the compression but you never know.

One small thing. The Solenoid is rising and staying up. I am clear on that.

But is the throttle arm on the injection pump rising up ( close to 90* of the injection pump)

I had an 003 that just stopped running during Sandy. Engine was on a depot reset gen, with only 94 hours total time. When I went to restart it, got no smoke, but the engine seemed to spin over fine. Pulled the valve cover and noticed very little movement on the rockers. After some checking, I pulled the engine apart and found a broken oil pump shaft. Before I pulled it apart I guess things were kinda held togethr enogh to show some signs of cam movement but not enough to get the engine running. Just my 2 cents but maybe pull a valve cover and check to make sure the rockers are moving as they should.

I have advised ZeusDiesel by e-mail to send the injectors back to me. It will only cost him postage. I'll retest them and pay the return postage. Otherwise, IMO, air in the system, IP malfunction, or a bigger problem is indicated as many have suggested. Easiest starting approach is to reconfirm the injectors as functional.

Jerry

ZeusDiesel said:

*so I cracked open the fuel line at the #1 injector, she cranked the starter, and I saw fuel/no air, tightened

*same procedure for other 3 injectors, encountered air at injectors 2,3,4, bubbling out in spurts with the IP pulse, when it seemed to run clear, I buttoned up each one, cranked it 2 more times (15 seconds each) no smoke could be there is still more air in the system?

* a little background check: the day before, after I installed the injectors and buttoned up the system, I pulled the IP spring and primed the system, cracking each fuel line @ the injectors, in sequence (1 -> 4), no air visible, re-installed the spring, torqued both nuts, primed, lit up the glow plugs for 60 sec. and attempted cranking 15 secs each time, resting a couple minutes between each attempt, good cranking/no smoke

ZeusDiesel

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I just re-read this whole thread for the fifth time and don't know why I didn't see this earlier. If there was no air the day before, where did it come from the next day? You seem to have an air leak somewhere. Is the check valve between the 3rd fuel pump and the IP working and installed in the right direction?

Also, why remove the IP spring? (I'm assuming you are referring to the delivery valve spring.) IMO that is just another source for air that would require very thorough bleeding. Run a quart or two of fuel through the lines at the injectors with IP buttoned up and, if you have no fuel system leaks, should fire.
Jerry

Zeus Diesel,
Are you out there?

ZeusDiesel is in the room. I was committed to volunteering at the local library for United Way, big landscaping project. Sorry for the late response.

The check valve is configured correctly. As mentioned a little while ago, when I pulled the injectors to send to Jerry, I noticed a pin head-size hole in the #3 injector return line, where it had been rubbing against the engine-cooling cover. I replaced this with a spare from another 003a I have for parts. With its location on the drain side of the loop leading to the fuel tank, don't know if that could have been associated with the problem. Anyway, I will follow Jerry's suggestion today and flush the lines with fuel and try another start up. If nothing comes of that, I will pull the valve covers for a look see. Then get back with you all. Thanks for all your input. ZeusDiesel

ZeusDiesel Update:

Yesterday, I disconnected the injector drain line from the fuel tank and put the end in a bucket. Turned on the primer pump and observed the outflow. While it was running I rotated the crankshaft by hand and also cranked the starter a few times. I was getting some decent size bubbles out of the line, but also a somewhat persistent fizz of smaller bubbles which I took to mean an air leak somewhere. I did find one loose fitting at the check valve and tightened it up but the fizz continued in the bucket which by then had over a gallon of diesel in it. Had to go to a county meeting, got back after dark. So today, the quest continues.

Possibly look at replacing some of the old, braided flex lines that run between the filters and the check valve. (Had one of those actually split and start leaking on its own last Winter when I started it up once.)

Still trying to find the easy possible fixes before pulling an injector and hooking it up outside the block, if I have an air leak, that wouldn't matter anyway.

ZeusDiesel

Agree, but I'm not sure that you won't always have air in the discharge line because it has no check valve and air will work its way up as fuel falls. Better to bleed from an injector line disconnected from the injector, then when you have run a quart or two and have no air, reconnect to the injector and then crack the other injector lines until bubble free. Should only take a couple ounces on the other injectors t get the air out in their lines.

Someone else please confirm my thoughts on the discharge line.
Jerry

storeman said:

Agree, but I'm not sure that you won't always have air in the discharge line because it has no check valve and air will work its way up as fuel falls. Better to bleed from an injector line disconnected from the injector, then when you have run a quart or two and have no air, reconnect to the injector and then crack the other injector lines until bubble free. Should only take a couple ounces on the other injectors t get the air out in their lines.

Someone else please confirm my thoughts on the discharge line.
Jerry

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Jerry, if you're talking about "leak-off lines" or return fuel lines, I've never run into any problems attributed to air in a return line causing air to get into the high pressure side. Not saying it can't happen, but after a few years working with CAT, Perkins, Ford, IHC, Allis Chalmers, Cummins etc.--never saw return fuel lines send air into the high pressure side of an injector. (BTW, I'm just shade-tree though, not certified or anything.) Have seen clogged return lines cause speed control problems but not air in the return lines....

Kevin

ok, Jerry, thanks, am heading out, will set it up and see what I get. ZeusDiesel

Try fittings at the pumps and before the pumps all the way to the tank as well. Sounds like you have air in the fuel stream.

Munchies said:

Try fittings at the pumps and before the pumps all the way to the tank as well. Sounds like you have air in the fuel stream.

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Haven't come across this on the 24v pumps, but I'm also wondering if one of them has some sort of problem that's introducing air "right off the get-go". If he could disable one pump at a time or swap out with others one at a time, then he could observe whether air problem goes away....

I have noticed that whereas the "auxillary tank" pump runs full tilt on prime, the "prime and start" pump bogs down immediately, just kinda clicks along. I disconnected the injector line on #1 injector, and turn on the primer, but get nothing out of the line, hand rotate the crank, still nothing, only when the starter cranks it, that I can see the IP spit fuel out of the line. No evidence of air in the fuel as it fills the clear plastic tube I have stuck on the end of the inj. line. Can't crank a quart of fuel out of the line without burning up the starter. In the past, in order to get the transfer pump to push the fuel through the injector line, without cranking, I had to pull the IP spring out, as they suggest if you are timing the IP to the flywheel. But as Jerry said, that just adds air back in.

I would tend to think that your air leak is on the suction side of the fuel pumps or in the removable base on them, if you have not cleaned the strainers on the bottom of the fuel pumps you may want to do so now, the gasket there can often be flipped to provide a good sealing surface.

Ike

THank you, Ike. I will go give it a try.

ZeusDiesel

I have noticed that whereas the "auxillary tank" pump runs full tilt on prime, the "prime and start" pump bogs down immediately, just kinda clicks along.

Zeus,
That is what should happen when your pumps have built up pressure. Doesn't mean there isn't air in the system, only that fuel pump pressure has been met (I seem to recall that is about 7 psi, so air isn't a disabling factor at that low pressure.)

After you check as Ike suggested, you will need to go through a full bleeding procedure from left to right, fuel pump to filter to filter, then to IP feed, and then on to injectors.

Also check condition of all hoses from tank to IP. Just remember that whenever you crack something to the left of the IP, everything else to the right needs to be bled.

Jerry