New Member/Western North Carolina RE: MEP 003A

Wednesday Morning: Pumps off (think they could have made it a little tighter to get to those mount bolts?) Sending message to Jerry. Go clean up the work bench.

ZeusDiesel

Hope it goes well. Curious to see whats wrong.

To clarify where we are:

From Bill:

Just finished pulling the pump.

Model # M50 2/4A-80A-9540A

SER BE 56948

I have the AMBAC exploded view with parts ID info. Not sure what issue I am looking for, but know that there are things I don't want to disassemble if I don't have to. Would sure appreciate any thoughts you have on how to proceed.



Bill,
If you can get it apart, the item I suspect is the "bow-tie washer" plunger guide, #26 if we are referring to the same diagram. Either the plunger shaft or the guide (bow-tie" is likely broken. It is hard to get these IPs apart to that level but it can be done. I service these pumps for $100 plus parts, if anything is broken. Let me know if you are doing it yourself. Get the -34 TM to help you.
Jerry

Bill,
First, you have to get the cap off. (Not big on terminology) I use a stainless hose clamp to grip the round cap and just carefully pry it up until I can pull it free. Rubber o-ring provides resistance. The button under it is easy to get out, just take a jeweler's screw driver go across the slot in the button carrier and compress the thin split ring, protect with your hand. you can slide it around easily and get at it from 2 sides. The big challenge is getting the 2 half rings out from below the head of the plunger shaft. A special tool is necessary to do that and you can't go further unless you remove them. A drill press is also necessary so you can compress the spring, hold it in compression, and fish out the half rounds with a magnet

A way to make a field expedient tool is to use a 1" dowel. Cut the center out so edges clear the part with 47 on it and compress the spring without taking the whole mechanism down. Can't be done with screw drivers without 4 hands and stabbing yourself. I used the dowel for a while then had a special tool made by a machinist. Again, if you don't have access to a drill press, you can't control the tool and lock it in place to allow you to fish out and later replace the half rings.

I've attached a picture of both my early tool and current one.

Once past the half rings, the rest is pretty straight forward.

Good luck.
Jerry
BTW, the special tool was made by a fine member of this site njtoolnut, who might also be able to make one for you.

Update: Bill has gone back to school full time and has opted to send the IP here. The Flea Market was open this weekend, so all I got was a call tag in my PO box on Saturday after we closed the store. Will pick up on Monday and get back to ya'll with what I find shortly thereafter (while at same time trying to do my 2012 income taxes before extension due date.)

PROCRASTINATION !! Wifey not happy. Happens every year even though they owe me $.

Jerry

Update, If anyone sees something I missed, please chime in.
I pulled the IP apart today. A lot of trash in it and the plunger was jammed a bit but not enough to keep it from working in my opinion. Good news is no broken parts. Have asked Bill send the injectors back to me and I'll retest them at no cost and return them with the pump when I reassemble it.

Assuming the injectors test good as they did when they left here and the pump goes back together without issue, we are back to air in the system or engine malfunction of some sort (compression, crank shaft, valves, etc).

Comments?
Jerry

thats good jerry. before zeus puts it back together he should stick the fuel hose coming from the filters in a bucket and turn the pump on to double check for bubbles going into the pump.

Thanks, JIMC. I will do that tomorrow when I am done pulling the injectors.

ZeusDiesel

Injectors are out and on their way to Jerry for a test. I took advantage of their absence and lit up the glow plugs a little and checked them with the laser thermom. The glowplugs are doing just fine. Also took JIMC suggestion and ran about a quart of fuel through the fuel supply line from the filters into a bucket. Not a single bubble and good flow. So, will wait for the IP and injectors to return and give it another try. Of course, always open to suggestions.

Wonder if the delivery valve is seating okay and or if the spring is worn out.

Will exchange spring when I reassemble the pump.
Jerry

Jerry,
I have not checked valve lash yet. Will get into the TM and check their procedure. I have checked the procedure for installing the IP, any suggestions for making it go smoothly? I know that's the one where I pull the IP spring to set the timing.

As mentioned in this thread recently, I believe I have verified that no air is getting into the lines before the IP.


Thanks for your attention and dedication to getting it right.


Bill

I wouldnt bother with the flow timing method. No spring pulling
Follow the manual version, pump off engine aligned to port close with #1 at TDC. Lock pump rotor with the screw hole on side of pump. INstall pump with lock in place. replace screw, hook up lines and throttle. go

there are important things I am leaving out, which is why it is critical to go step by step via the TM.

yeah just use a 1/8" drill bit in the hole. you really dont have to flow time the pump. the pump came off your own gen that you know was running good. the timing itself cant change.

Bill,

You really need to get into the TMs. You don't pull any spring to time the IP, just a little access screw on the IP base. put the base of a 1/8" drill bit in the hole and turn the face gear of the pump until the bit drops into a key grove. Keep the bit in place and rotate the engine until you can see the PC marks through the circular hole with the index to the left of the IP. Remove the plug in the fan guard on the front of the genny and turn the fan wheel clockwise with a 5/8" deep socket until the PC mark is dead center in the index pointer. If you go past it, don't reverse direction! Go around again until you get it right. Once right, seat the IP and remove the bit and replace the screw and its washer.

I find it easier to do if I disconnect the stuff to the left of the IP to give me more hand room. TMs will really help you and there are lots of posts on SS about timing IPOs. This link to the moderator's post shows all links to download TMs. You want the -12 and -34 for the 585 series. The -12 will walk you through valve adjustment and the IP timing, if I remember right. **** getting old.

http://test.steelsoldiers.com/upload/Generators/TM5-6115-585-12.pdf
http://test.steelsoldiers.com/upload/Generators/TM5-6115-585-34.pdf

Jerry

and make sure you have #1 on tdc compression stroke while on PC. getting that wrong can throw you for a loop. Easy to do just by watching the rockers.

YOU ALL ARE THE BEST!! THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT!

AND JERRY, THANKS FOR HANGING IN THERE WITH ME AND RE-CHECKING THOSE INJECTORS, I AM SURE IT WASN'T NECESSARY, BUT YOU OFFERED ANYWAY.
Soon as I get 'em back , I will get on it.

All have a great Autumn weekend!

Bill
ZeusDiesel

Bill,
If still no fire after reassembling, I hope the worst you will find is an undetected air leak.
Jerry

Well, I got it all back together, injectors and IP, but no smoke. pulled #4 injector and hooked up the inj. line outside to see it spray. Well, it sprayed...fuel right out of the drain line, good and hard....yikes...I didn't listen to Munchies.. enuf..I'm 180 out...misinterpreted..so back to it tomorrow...Sorry, Jerry

ZeusDiesel

Folks,
Bill and I had an e-mail discussion earlier and I mentioned to check 180 out based on what he told me.

It is beginning to sound like a cam shaft problem if timing is right. I suggested he might try removing the pump and cranking to see what is happening with the cam lobe that drives the IP. Suggested it was time to go back on steel soldiers with symptoms and see what others thought.

Jerry

Jerry,

Thanks for sticking with me on this. I obviously lack the knowledge of the internal workings of the IP. The thing that threw me for a loop was how the IP is pumping the fuel back up the overflow port thru the drain lines to the injector. Would its being 180 out really do that? But any way, I digress. I am about to go out the door and pull the pump and hand crank the engine around to proper timing. It has been mentioned to me by my local excavation guy who also owns a NAPA store that in his many, many years of running old equipment, that has sat unused for a while that they add a little bit of motor oil to the cylinders before restart to improve compression.


I will check back on the SS site before I put this thing back together, this morning (Friday), for any additional input. This has been a real learning process, A GOOD ONE I MIGHT ADD, we all learn from our mistakes and challenges, keeps life interesting.


I really do appreciate everyone's inputs. We are gonna lick this thing and then have a cold one to celebrate.


I will post this on the SS site now to help with the thread. ALSO, I DO CRACK EACH LINE AT THE INJECTOR AND BLEED THEM ONE BE ONE, 1,2,3,4...although it was a little hard to do with the IP pumping up the drain line.


Thanks,


Bill
ZeusDiesel