New to me and Dad M38A1

helomedic1171 said:

Dad's been traveling and I've been working and then watching the girls (we've got twin 3 yr olds) while the wife goes job hunting. I'm getting out in September, so she's going to carry the paycheck while I go back to school. we've been gathering a lot of parts - I'm going up to see WillFreeman in a week or so, and I'm talking to a couple of other members to get a few things we need. we also picked up a blasting pot, a blast cabinet, some walnut shell media, a tumbler, and a deadman kit and a soda conversion kit for the blast pot.

we also hit a slight SNAFU - this jeep is supposed to be a Marine Jeep, but hidden under the paint on the hood, I found "US ARMY" and some numbers.... I don't know if this hood is original or not to this jeep, but assuming it is, we need to carefully save those numbers since everyone says the hood numbers are nearly impossible to figure out unless you already have them or have a lot of data/history with the Jeep. that said, once I get a good idea of what the numbers are, I'm going to start disassembly and prep for blasting. I like to think of this phase as the organization phase. it's also been crappy weather lately, so that hasn't helped either.

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1171, see that you're in Savannah:

- You upwind of the big fire down there?

yeah, I'm on the other end of town. and luckily, we're far south enough of the cold snap that other than being chilly, we're fine. plus the MEP 003 hums along once I fire her up, so we're set. it does make it problematic trying to do anything outside of the garage though, between the freezing rain and the cold itself. at this point, I'm hoping they close the base so I have a day to play around in the garage and start tearing into a jeep or two.

I can't remember, did the Jeep have data plates? What about the plate behind the passenger seat - is it still there, under layers of paint? I'm going to go back and look at your pics again. Glad to see you are taking your time and looking for numbers. Have you tried looking for unit numbers on the bumpers yet?

I went back and looked at your pics again. I see it doesn't have dash plates and didn't see a pic of the passenger wheelwell. What does the title say the serial# is? Maybe it will match your wheelwell plate, but could match the engine serial# as well. Is the front bumper stack or a bubba mod - can't really tell? I see the rear bumper is a bubba, so you won't get any numbers off of it. Your hood might be the way to go as far as rebuilding it with it's history. If you have a serial# plate on the wheelwell, we can see if it falls in the USMC range - also, the USMC version was undercoated and has a rear locker as well as the rear bumper with shackles on the side (as you already know about).

we have the data plate off the wheelwell - MD 78857, with an original Willys plate. where do I find the USMC serial number ranges? the bumpers are straight bubba specials. I'm going to have to carefully cut them off, because they were welded to the frame, but luckily, the original mounting holes for the stock bumpers are unmolested. I think if I take my time, I can save that whole area and be able to just bolt on the stock bumpers. because of that, the bumper criteria is out. I keep forgetting to check for undercoating. Tomorrow, I think I'm going to jack up the rear and check for a locker. it does have this floor heater I've never seen... anyone know what the deal is with this? I've never seen another jeep with one of these. I know they exist, but I know nothing about it.

helomedic1171 said:

it does have this floor heater I've never seen... anyone know what the deal is with this? I've never seen another jeep with one of these. I know they exist, but I know nothing about it.

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It's an Arvin heater; they made several different models and were a common modification to early Jeeps. Some of them sell for good money once fixed up. I've had a few different models, but always ended up selling them since they don't get used much here.

-WRM

is it a civilian or a military modification? if they were military, were they branch specific or branch immaterial? are they electric or do they use coolant flow for the heat source?

It's likely a civilian modification. It used coolant flow for the heat source and 12V for the fan. If memory serves, the military heater was usually on the driver's side.

-WRM

ETA: It looks like the M38A1 used an under-hood heater with an attached blower motor. Earlier models used an under-dash heater on the driver's side.

I was wondering about that - the arctic kit had the radiator blanket and the fuel-fired heater on the passenger fenderwell.... I still hate those fuel-fired heaters to this day, at least the modern versions. they're a leaky-fire-death-inferno-monoxide hazard waiting to happen in M113s and M997 FLAs. but I digress...

this may explain the regulator I posted a photo of earlier. I bet a previous owner (who knows which one) converted to 12V and added this heatersince there is no under-dash or fenderwell heater in this jeep.

more photos:


You can faintly see "US ARMY" in this shot of the driver's side hood. the letters are going to take some time, but I think if I'm careful, I can painstakingly chip the green paint off of the numbers and perhaps decipher what they are.



some unknown and possibly irrelevant symbol. it may be Bubba's family crest, or it may be a unit symbol or letter, I have no idea.



under the rear floor. no undercoating.



through the wheel well looking at the transition area (the floor riser?) no undercoat here either.



this is a Bubba mod, right? specifically, that little loop-thing in the middle of the photo above the center of the bumper.

and I went out and checked for a locker. my guess? no LSD or locker. I spin one wheel, the other wheel goes the opposite direction. I spin the opposite wheel, same thing. I spin the yoke, and both wheels turn, but not forcefully or with any serious tractive effort. when I grab one wheel and spin the yoke, the other wheel turns faster.

pretty sure this is an Army Jeep.

The symbol in picture #2: is that a decal or paint? I'd be interested in seeing if there's any more of it left. The majority of things I've seen in that location (especially on former military vehicles) is the civil defense logo.

For the loop thing, I'm guessing that's a bubba-mod; never seen anything like that before.

-WRM

we have the data plate off the wheelwell - MD 78857, with an original Willys plate. where do I find the USMC serial number ranges?

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They don't REALLY have "set" ranges, except in the '60s, if I remember correctly. I went through and read everything I could when I was looking for hood number information (my Jeep didn't have the original hood #s, and I was trying to figure out what to put on it). There is a lot of info on willysmjeeps. As far as I remember, all of the 'a1s were ordered by the US Army, then transferred over to the USMC and Air Force. It doesn't sound right now that I read it back to myself. I'll go back and see if I can find it again. They had certain "blocks" of serial numbers from what little research is out there. Apparently, Willys didn't keeps the records, so all of that info is lost. Wes is trying to put together a database of serial #s relating to delivery dates and hood numbers so that we can rebuild that lost info. But he is having a hard time getting people to send in the info about their Jeeps, so it is almost impossible to get a big database.

OK, with that said (man, I'm starting to get long winded, LOL!), that's sucks that the original bumpers are gone. The wheelwell serial plate is a good find though - most of the time they are still there - people are too lazy or miss taking them off and just spray over them. Does your title match the plate or the engine #?

More than likely if you don't see signs of undercoating or a rear locker, it is an Army Jeep. Rebuild her and enjoy!

The ring thing where the pintle hook should be is a bubba tow rope ring - used for towing an old truck hood around (with people on it) in the snow - we didn't have 4 wheelers in the south back in the '70s and '80s! Just kidding - but I DID think about doing it yesterday (the wife wasn't going to let the kids get on it though, so that idea was shot down!).

The heater is cool, just because of the old technology, but man that thing takes up a lot of floor area! Like WRMorrison said, they are probably worh some money - money you can use to buy parts! You can buy an 'a1 heater kit (electric and hot water version) for around $300, but the doors for the top enclosure are going to cost you $600! Truct me, that's what I am trying to find now - then I'll worry about the heater.

Again, like WRMorrison said, that symbol on the lower cowl is probably a Civil Defense or TVA one. My Jeep has a Forestry Service decal on the top of the cowl. I have seen special units with a symbol painted there though (a Cavalry symbol comes to mind).

I looked at the Willysmjeeps database. Here is what I found:

MD70989 with a delivery date of 01/54
MD73039 (unknown delivery date)
MD74112(unknown delivery)
MD79140(unknown delivery)
MD81433 with delivery 02/55

I would say yours is probably between 09 and 11/54 delivery date. I'll keep looking for USMC Jeep info.

A quick search on willysmjeeps site revealed Wes's comment about USMC jeeps backing up what I said in an earlier post: Wes is a very knowledgeable historian/restorer (and the developer of the willysmjeeps website) of M38/M38a1 vehicles.

The military destroyed vehicle service records when they were declared surplus to their needs. So there's not much chance of finding any info there. Although most military service records of jeeps were filed under the hood registration numbers the destruction of those records and the lack of any paperwork offering a correlation between hood registration numbers and chassis serial numbers leaves little hope of getting answers from those numbers.

The Army from 1950 thru about 1958/60 was the primary contracting agency for all wheeled tactical vehicles for all the services. As the jeeps rolled off the line the Army would direct their shipment to the using agency or unit. The Marine Corp installed a different responsible agency plate (lower left dash plate) which showed the Army Ordnance Command as the procurer and the USMC as the maintainer. The Navy and USAF usually added a separate data plate noting their ownership. But vehicles often changed military owner and this makes it even tougher to ascertain which service and when they were operated in.

This leaves the unit markings painted on the jeep as the only real source of military service history. Even with markings you still have no way of ascertaining when they were in that unit. One place to look is unit historians where you may find dated photos showing your hood number.

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This will be my last "Wes" quote on the subject, as I think it pretty much sums it up:

For the M series jeeps DOM and DOD are one in the same. The Willys factory had an in house inspector's office and team. The jeeps received their acceptance inspection at the end of the assembly line and the plates were then stamped with the inspector's office chief's initials and the Date Delivered. This is on the serial plate on the dash data plate group in the lower right corner. The Army hood registration numbers were also applied then. The jeep's Willys serial number can be found on the Willys or Kaiser patent plate which is on the front vertical surface of the right rear wheel house.

From 1948 thru about 1954/55 all services had to process their tactical vehicle needs through the Army Procurement System managed by the Army Ordnance Dept. This is why as in the illustration above the lower left plate (Responsible Agency Plate" shows procurement through the Army Ordnance Dept and Depot (Maintenance) through the Marine Corps.

The heavy M38A1 production period was 1952 through 1955. Of the 120,000 built nearly 86,000 were built during that period. Production slowed way down with most going to Holland as NEKAFs. Then in the early 60's thru 1964 the Marines ordered a sizable quantity. This batch had Navy/Marine contract numbers and the Responsible Agency Plates reflected this. From the mid 60's production slowed again with a spurt for M38A1 CDN2 and M38A1 CDN 3 production for the Canadians ending around 1971. 1957/58 saw a light production effort for the Marines and a couple of South American Countries.

You see a lot of USMC M38A1's but one must remember that when the M151 came out in 1959/60 the Marines did not accept many. The Army started a major shift to the M151 and thousands of Army M38A1's were turned over to the Marines and the Marines processed all of them through their Depot system and configured them the same as their 1960's vintage contracts with Kaiser. Most of these ex-Army A1's were given undercoatin, and powr-loc diffs and etc just like the new contract USMC A1's.

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wilfreeman said:

The ring thing where the pintle hook should be is a bubba tow rope ring - used for towing an old truck hood around (with people on it) in the snow - we didn't have 4 wheelers in the south back in the '70s and '80s! Just kidding - but I DID think about doing it yesterday (the wife wasn't going to let the kids get on it though, so that idea was shot down!).
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Listening to Mama is not always a bad idea:

http://themetapicture.com/and-this-is-why-women-live-longer-than-men/

Oh come on - you didn't ride on a car hood in the snow back in the day? I thought every kid in the world had done that! You live in VA - I know you did. Or maybe an old coca cola dish type sign (which are worth a fortune now). We would tie an old '40s truck hood to the back of the Jeep and pull it (with 2 or 3 friends in it) to the power line right of way where there were big hills. We would spend all day riding that hood down the hill and pulling it back up with the Jeep. No harm, no foul.Oh come on - you didn't ride on a car hood in the snow back in the day? I thought every kid in the world had done that! You live in VA - I know you did. Or maybe an old coca cola dish type sign (which are worth a fortune now). We would tie an old '40s truck hood to the back of the Jeep and pull it (with 2 or 3 friends in it) to the power line right of way where there were big hills. We would spend all day riding that hood down the hill and pulling it back up with the Jeep. No harm, no foul.

It's amazing what some people think is a good idea - and I only saw a couple of alcohol bottles in all of those pics!

No kidding though - if you think something is a great idea, make sure you think through it again COMPLETELY before you actually do it. Funny thing is that my neighbor called me right after I posted that. He wants me to bring the hood up to his field for the adults to sled on! You don't really need that spare Jeep hood (not the one on the parts Jeep, the other one) do you helomedic? Just kidding - I know alcohol will be involved once I go up there, and that makes a bad combination! I do need to take the Jeep out in the field and get some video of it drifting before we start enjoying the snow though.

I've rode on a truck hood in the snow...pulled by a horse! Rope tied to the saddlehorn...lol.

-WRM

I've used a hood and a jeep to sled before too.

wilfreeman said:

Oh come on - you didn't ride on a car hood in the snow back in the day? I thought every kid in the world had done that! You live in VA - I know you did. Or maybe an old coca cola dish type sign (which are worth a fortune now).

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Oh yeah; Old inner tubes ganged together behind that blue Ford Tractor. And then there was "skitching":

- go out on the streets before they got plowed, and wait at the stop signs

- then grab the bumper of the cars out driving in the snow (this goes way back when everybody had a set of chains for their car)

- and skid ("skitch") behind those cars, out in the street

Thanks for all the info. I'm going to try and take that heater off, but I don't know if we'll get the heater kit to replace it. It doesn't stay cold this far south for long, but it rains a lot, so the doors would be a good investment. Wil - far be it for me to deprive ya'll of a perfectly good sled. and the hood numbers, once I narrow down what they are, I'll send them to Wes. I need to send him our serial number. I was in 1st Cav for 3 yrs, I may just do that - replace the decal with a Cav patch.