German STORCH of WWII

steelypip said:

I've read Speer's memoir, which I found fascinating.

Back on topic, this 'we can do anything' mentality lead to all kinds of hardcore engineering advances.

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CARNAC said:

Although I hate to say it, Hitler was probably ONE (emphasis added) of the best communicators in history.

My next statement doesn't necessarily apply to this specific topic but in our recent time, never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.

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No holds barred here; keep 'em coming:

- Anything is Fair Game, as long as it's the least bit interesting

"Everything proceeds from everything/
Everything becomes everything/
And everything can be turned into something else."

- Leonardo da Vinci (Florence c.1507)

Another Ahab said:

- Anything is Fair Game, as long as it's the least bit interesting

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Need to qualify that:

- almost anything:

Another Ahab said:

Lining up at the Door, we've seen some Big Hitters:

And a few others expected to arrive, before Last Call.

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Another Ahab said:

Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering, in-the-House!!

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Arriving stylishly late, wouldn't you know it?

It's the Italians:

- Tenente Furio Lauri

Highly decorated, he flew AXIS and ALLIED missions both (very Italian).

He finished up the war flying a Storch for a British Special Forces Unit, recovering downed Allied pilots through hazardous operations in German-held territory.

M813rc said:

Toward the end, I do believe the Allies tried NOT to assassinate him because 1- he was a great villain to hate from a propaganda viewpoint; and 2- if they whacked him, somebody capable might have replaced him and begun to manage the war properly (from the German perspective), which would have made things a lot more difficult. The Allies wanted an unconditional surrender, rather than a negotiated one which is what would have happened with a sensible man at the helm. They knew Hitler wouldn't surrender, and he was also an incompetent military commander.

Cheers

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It is easy now to readily dismiss Hitler as a strategic incompetent, but history is likely more complex than that.

I am not a WWII authority, but I do read some when I can:

- the "Bulge" operation was Hitler's idea entirely (if I'm not mistaken);

- And if it hadn't been for Patton's (amazingly) rapid response, the outcome might not have gone to the Allies favor. God bless George S. Patton and his spirit, now and forever.

Also, Hitler was a little "punch-drunk" towards the last half of the war (what with the tremendous reverse of Stalingrad, the loss of Paulus and the whole 6th Army, and also the assassination attempt - by his own people, among other factors). He was a bit "off his feed" (understandably), and was likely not thinking as straight as he might otherwise (ok with me).

Adolph Hitler was no "dummy". He didn't get to where he got purely by accident.

History is complicated. It might be hard to argue that the final outcome of WWII was inevitable. But personally, I'm glad it ended the way it did (+/-).

There is a recent book on our US Ambassador to Germany in the early 30's. Its a great ready and gives a first hand seat at Hitlers table along with his cabinet. Ambassador Dodd was a University of Chicago history prof. He used his knowledge as a lever of diplomacy. He warned Washington of what was happening-it all fell on deaf ears in DC.
History repeats itself. Hitlers story can be found in the waves of rulers all the way back to the Roman Empire.
Highly recommend this book-"In the Garden of Beasts".
Pete

Another Ahab said:

It is easy now to readily dismiss Hitler as a strategic incompetent, but history is likely more complex than that.

I am not a WWII authority, but I do read some when I can:

- the "Bulge" operation was Hitler's idea entirely (if I'm not mistaken);

- And if it hadn't been for Patton's (amazingly) rapid response, the outcome might not have gone to the Allies favor. God bless George S. Patton and his spirit, now and forever.

Also, Hitler was a little "punch-drunk" towards the last half of the war (what with the tremendous reverse of Stalingrad, the loss of Paulus and the whole 6th Army, and also the assassination attempt - by his own people, among other factors). He was a bit "off his feed" (understandably), and was likely not thinking as straight as he might otherwise (ok with me).

Adolph Hitler was no "dummy". He didn't get to where he got purely by accident.

History is complicated. It might be hard to argue that the final outcome of WWII was inevitable. But personally, I'm glad it ended the way it did (+/-).

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I had a special course in college on Adolph Hitler and the Third Reich (name of course). We were required to read Mein Kampf for that class. What a whacko, so who wrote Mein Kampf anyway?

The Ardennes Offensive was ill conceived. If anything it hastened the end of the war as it used up a large amount of resources that could have cause more Allied casualties in a defensive effort. I doubt it would have brought about a political solution but it would have been more costly. What if the Allies would have needed to slog through the summer of 45 and then hit the winter of 45/46 and battling in the Alps at that time? A lot of what if's.

Keep in mind that the equipment losses at Stalingrad equated to a full year of all weapons production for the Germans. Shortly thereafter, the Germans suffered the loss in Africa that was almost as bad. Then the loss of Sicily and opening of the Italian front, loss of the air, counter actions against U-boats and the overall loss of the technological edge on the battlefield.....

CARNAC said:

The Ardennes Offensive was ill conceived. If anything it hastened the end of the war as it used up a large amount of resources that could have cause more Allied casualties in a defensive effort. I doubt it would have brought about a political solution but it would have been more costly. What if the Allies would have needed to slog through the summer of 45 and then hit the winter of 45/46 and battling in the Alps at that time? A lot of what if's.

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Agreed, CARNAC, you're absolutely right; doesn't get us anywhere:

BTW. Since nobody took the bait. Hitler didnt write Mein Kampf. Rudolph Hess did. Hitler dictated it to him while doing time in Landsberg prison.

Fumble

CARNAC said:

BTW. Since nobody took the bait. Hitler didnt write Mein Kampf. Rudolph Hess did. Hitler dictated it to him while doing time in Landsberg prison.

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Oh, MAN; I totally missed the set-up; D***:

Lol. Good one

You know I read Mein Kampf about 5-6 years ago:

- All of a sudden occurred to me as a pretty essential part of understanding WWII.

- Kind of startles and mystifies me that a reading of the book is not encouraged (to my knowledge) by many history teachers anywhere.

- My take-away (in simplest terms) was his repetitive pounding away on the topics of Purity, Force, and his constant reference to the general public as "Cattle" (i.e., readily led and directed). CARNAC: sound about right, the way you remember it?

- Force: somebody should have read his book, and paid attention to that repeating theme when they had the time.

But the single most surprising thing to me was a page where he noted that the use of force was so crucial to getting anything done, that "even if you wanted a world of Peace, it would have to be done by force" (my paraphrase). He said it himself in his book (or, as the Great CARNAC notes, dictated it anyway to Hess).

Wow, if only somebody had helped him head off in THAT direction….you know?

When I say Hitler was an incompetent military commander, I mean that many of his decisions were based on anger or whim rather than sound strategic purpose. A few of the many available examples-

He insisted that the invasion of Poland start in 1939, when it was in fact planned for the summer of 1940. The German military were not quite ready, but did what they were told.

The old story of losing the Battle of Britain when it was virtually won, by switching to city bombing rather than finishing the original job on the RAF.

The invasion of Russia was ill timed, and done against the advice of his generals. And the expenditure of so many resources to capture Stalingrad, mostly because of its name, was costly in other areas.

The Ardennes offensive was a bold move, and initially very successful in local terms, but there were inadequate resources available to exploit the successes, even if the full objectives had been achieved. It also wiped out most of the German reserve forces, the Luftwaffe suffered heavy losses it couldn't afford, and the pulling of so many troops from the Eastern front seriously weakened the German position there.

The intent to lay waste to one's own country (scorched earth), rather than lose it intact to the enemy, is not a new one, but can hardly be viewed as sound.

All in all, too lengthy a topic to cover adequately here. Makes for years of interesting study though!

Cheers

M813rc;1620861[COLOR=#ffff00 said:

]When I say Hitler was an incompetent military commander,[/COLOR] I mean that many of his decisions were based on anger or whim rather than sound strategic purpose. A few of the many available examples-

All in all, too lengthy a topic to cover adequately here. Makes for years of interesting study though!

Cheers

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You bet 813, I wasn't sniping at you, and I hope you will forgive me if I gave you that impression:

- Clearly you have dipped your toe into the complexity of this particular episode of history

- And I enjoy the exchanges (there is just so much to know, and the pity of it is the limited time we have to get to it all, for this era; or any era).

But the fun of it, as you note is, when you think you have it all, somebody/something comes along and teaches you that: "there is always more".

Cheers back at ya!

Another Ahab said:

Lining up at the Door, we've seen some Big Hitters:

And a few others expected to arrive, before Last Call.

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Another Ahab said:

Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering, in-the-House!!

Click to expand...

Another Ahab said:

Arriving stylishly late, wouldn't you know it?

It's the Italians:

- Tenente Furio Lauri

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And a little Scandinavian flavor also helps to round out the growing crowd:





Fieseler "Storch" KR+QX landed in Sweden soon before the end of the war. A while afterwards she was refurbished and put into service with the Swedish Air Force.

Another Ahab said:

You bet 813, I wasn't sniping at you, and I hope you will forgive me if I gave you that impression

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Absolutely no offense was taken! So, no worries. I was merely providing illumination on some of the events which influenced my opinion. And it is just my opinion, I make no claim to expertise.

Since WWII had ended a mere 15 years prior to my birth, it was still a very hot topic during my childhood (though I thought it ancient history, the perspective of time to a child), so I read a great deal about it. For literally as long as I can remember, I have been interested in military history. Many of my family members and family friends were veterans of the war, and many of WWI. Despite Ireland's stated neutrality, many of her sons went to fight for the Brits. (This may be partially explained by the natural penchant of many an Irishman to partake in any war going at any particular point in history!). Included in these was my dad, who was an RAF Spitfire pilot.

I look back at my rather simplistic initial ideas about WWII and smile. I thought it all to have been very clear and well organized. I have been reading on the topic for near 50 years and still learn new things, and see new perspectives, on a frequent basis. I also learned, particularly from my own military experience, just how unclear things are at the time they are happening.
A great deal of interesting information and perspective can be gleaned from German veterans' autobiographies. Most were just soldiers fighting their country's war, rather than 'evil Nazis'.

On the topic of simplistic points of view, I was seven when the Arab-Israeli Six Day War happened (June 1967). I was somewhat amazed on hearing that the opposing forces were shelling each other across the Suez canal. This awe was inspired by the fact that in Ireland, canals are between 30' and 80' across, so I had no concept of a canal several miles wide!
I had similar interest in the 'communist trained gorillas' fighting in Vietnam. Guerrilla was a word I had yet to make acquaintance with. I admit to being somewhat disappointed when the difference was pointed out to me.

Cheers

M813rc said:

Absolutely no offense was taken! So, no worries. I was merely providing illumination on some of the events which influenced my opinion. And it is just my opinion, I make no claim to expertise.

(This may be partially explained by the natural penchant of many an Irishman to partake in any war going at any particular point in history!). Included in these was my dad, who was an RAF Spitfire pilot.

I had similar interest in the 'communist trained gorillas' fighting in Vietnam. Guerrilla was a word I had yet to make acquaintance with. I admit to being somewhat disappointed when the difference was pointed out to me.Cheers

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Wow. Does your Dad talk at all about the war?

Just curious: did he see the V-1's in the air?



Oh yeah, and Gorilla My Dreams (Communist-trained):

Another Ahab said:

Lining up at the Door, we've seen some Big Hitters:

And a few others expected to arrive, before Last Call.

Click to expand...

Another Ahab said:

Arriving stylishly late, wouldn't you know it?
It's the Italians:

-

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Another Ahab said:

And a little Scandinavian flavor also helps to round out the growing crowd:

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And clear a table too please for the Norwegians.

"Waiter! Oh, Waiter!!":



Photos taken at Oslo airport Fornebu in April 1940 indicate that the Storch participated early in the attack on Norway (operation Weserübung).

The Storch was ideal for operations in Norway, especially because it could land nearly everywhere on skis during winter.

Several Wehrmacht units operated the Storch in Norway, especially as a means of transportation thre due to the vast distances and inadequately built roads. Another important task was to search for Norwegian underground resistance groups hiding in the mountains.

After the war at least 35 Storch aircraft were taken over by the Norwegian Air Force.

This was the only type of German aircraft that in any significant number escaped destruction by British units.

Most of them were in a bad condition and it was decided to give 10 of the best ones a complete overhaul. Only 8 aircraft were eventually overhauled at the main depot at Kjeller. They became known as Kjeller Storch and given new serial numbers KF- 1 to KF - 8. The last military operation with a Kjeller Storch was in 1954.

Later, at least two of them were registered as civil aircraft, and one of them flew until 1961. The only complete Storch in Norway at the moment is a static one on displayed at the Sola Museum as SB+UY.

Another Ahab said:

Wow. Does your Dad talk at all about the war?

Just curious: did he see the V-1's in the air?

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My dad refused to talk much of it. He told me what a lovely aeroplane the Spitfire was to fly; he talked of North Africa, the food and the people; he talked of France. But never what he was doing there.

He died in 2005. We knew he was dying in those last couple of weeks, and I asked him to tell me his experiences so I could record his history.
He thought for a few minutes, then softly said "There are some stories best left untold". His secrets died with him.
He and my uncle, who flew B-24s, went on a trip in the early sixties to revisit their war. After my dad died, my uncle told me that he had always been deeply troubled by the things he had wrought during the war. Such is the truth for most military men.

He didn't say if he personally met V-1s in the air, though he did tell me they were slow enough to intercept. He told me that they were very dangerous if you shot them down (ie a really big explosion right in front of you!), but that they could be taken down by tipping them over with your own wing.
He first spoke of V-1s while looking at a model of one that I was building. I first heard of the Spitfires that way, he looked at my model and said "It was such a lovely aeroplane. I flew them in the war, you know". Well, no, I didn't! He actually went to England with that specific goal in mind.

He did see V-1s from the ground in London, said they sounded like motorcycles sputtering over (think of WWII era bikes, not modern ones).
He said that the joke at the time was "What do you do when you hear a V-1?" "Nothing. Its when you don't hear it you worry!"

For those not familiar with the V-1, it 'sputtered' along on its pulse jet engine until it reached a programmed point, then the engine cut and the bomb came down. So long as you could hear the engine, it would be past you before it could hit, so you were safe. From that one, anyway.

My dad also heard a couple of V-2s hit. He said there would be an explosion with no warning, instantly followed by a horrible shriek. Since the rockets were supersonic coming down, they got there right before their own sound.

I like the gorilla picture. Apparently I'm not the only one who thought that.

Cheers

Some pictures of V-1s, including one being tipped by a Spitfire.

Cheers

M813rc said:

My dad refused to talk much of it. He told me what a lovely aeroplane the Spitfire was to fly; he talked of North Africa, the food and the people; he talked of France. But never what he was doing there.

He died in 2005. We knew he was dying in those last couple of weeks, and I asked him to tell me his experiences so I could record his history.
He thought for a few minutes, then softly said "There are some stories best left untold". His secrets died with him.
He and my uncle, who flew B-24s, went on a trip in the early sixties to revisit their war. After my dad died, my uncle told me that he had always been deeply troubled by the things he had wrought during the war. Such is the truth for most military men.

Cheers

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I'm not surprised, but I just wondered. Some good stories considering though.

The same was true of my Grandfather (WWI and WWII) , and all his sons (my Dad, and my two Uncles). Some few stories but skirted completely around the human horrors of the wars. Because they had to.

Very cool that your Dad flew the Spitfires.

I am sorry he is gone. May his spirit rest in peace.