How to make HMMWV street legal.

3dAngus is right. They are being sold as off road use only. Let's keep them that way. If the powers that be see that everyone is going to try and sneak around and get titles, then they will probably close the door on the sales completely. We have rules prohibiting certain topics being discussed on here, why? Because members are not the only one's reading our posts. If the government is willing to let us buy these trucks and only use them off road, then lets abide by their wishes. It is so much better to have them off road, then to not have them at all. I hope everyone understands that we should let this topic be and focus on making sure these trucks stay available to us in the future.

That brings another question:

Granted, you sign a statement saying that you acknowledge that the vehicle is being sold for non-road use only. Legally, you are obligated to comply with that agreement, whether you like it or not. HOWEVER, does this agreement carry to the next owner, i.e. if you sell it (with a bill of sale, since you don't have a title) to another person, does that agreement convey, or can the next owner go through the title acquisition process and get it registered for road use in his state? Theory being that the off-road use policy was not agreed to by the next owner, only the person who signed it when they purchased it through GovPlanet?

I'm not condoning any illegal activity, only asking the question if this might be a legal way to go about it?

Even if not possible EVER to get them titled and registered for road use - still WAY better than scrapping them for no good reason.

Thanks Al. One of the things I proposed, (not that my letter of request had anything to do with it) when I requested these be sold for off road use only, is that a government approved contractor be utilized for making street legal, for remake, test, and certification of compliance.
It would not surprise me to see this announced at some time later, but for now, I could only imagine the leaders of this difficult to get change,reading some of this crap on SS and saying what a can of worms they opened up.
Please keep in mind, all it takes is one phone call, judt one by the right person, and these auctions dissappear for another 15 years.

maddawg308 said:

That brings another question:

Granted, you sign a statement saying that you acknowledge that the vehicle is being sold for non-road use only. Legally, you are obligated to comply with that agreement, whether you like it or not. HOWEVER, does this agreement carry to the next owner, i.e. if you sell it (with a bill of sale, since you don't have a title) to another person, does that agreement convey, or can the next owner go through the title acquisition process and get it registered for road use in his state? Theory being that the off-road use policy was not agreed to by the next owner, only the person who signed it when they purchased it through GovPlanet?

I'm not condoning any illegal activity, only asking the question if this might be a legal way to go about it?

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If you resale it to someone else, you need to have them sign paperwork stating that is for off-road use only. Let's say you sell it to someone and they go and get a title and drive it down the road. Then they get into a wreck and kill someone. When the investigation goes through and they find out that the vehicle was never suppose to be titled, they can come back to you. This could make you liable because you failed to inform that person that it was unsafe for the roads and never should have been titled.

Also since an End User Certificate (EUC) is required for the sale, you are suppose to keep records on who you sell it to, that means they have to sign paperwork to begin with. (and the EUC follows the items for the rest of its life)

It goes into the same category with someone who totals their vehicle, buys it back, then fixes and sells it to someone else with their original "clean" title. The next owner doesn't know that the vehicle was totaled and their insurance will never cover it for full price. Yes people do it all that time, but to me it's wrong and a decent person wouldn't do that.

Hope that helps with the question and makes sense.

Thanks, Al. It does make sense. Bottom line is, the process is fine for all those who are honorable and going to play by the rules. Time would tell if the "good faith agreements" are honored along the way, those who are going to break the rules will always screw the system up.

My opinion, there are still a lot of HMMWVs out there from years back in civilian hands, that ARE properly titled and registered for road use, so why bother? If you want to use it on the road, go with those that already are. If you are just going to use them offroad and on private property, then be honest about it and buy one of the newer surplussed ones. Also, there may be a good possibility that in the near future some HMMWVs are released WITHOUT the off-road-use-only agreement, in which case all this discussion is moot.

Time will tell what happens, but I agree 100% that if we all play by the rules, and not try and get around them, it will have a more lasting affect and more positive outcomes for our vehicles and our hobby.

Exactly Maddawg. Always best to play by the rules, or not at all. The way I see it is, its a win/win. There will be two classes of civilian former military vehicles. Those with the pedigree, or paperwork dating back to the original auction, and those for off road use only, which should not draw as high a premium in the secondary market. Pedigreed HMMWVs will actually increase in value now, as collectors seek them out even more. Parts, new old stock will go up, but more used parts come available from scrappers to be rehosted on both classes of vehicles. The Government will continue to honor the older dates, but be harsh on those who make the mistake of trying to circumvent the system in place. They will, and should, seek out that first individual or company that falsifies the intent of this auction and make an example of them, hitting them where it hurts, with a repossessed vehicle, fines, and possible criminal charges.
Govt lawyers are free.
This is a gift!

3dAngus said:

Exactly Maddawg. Always best to play by the rules, or not at all. The way I see it is, its a win/win. There will be two classes of civilian former military vehicles. Those with the pedigree, or paperwork dating back to the original auction, and those for off road use only, which should not draw as high a premium in the secondary market. Pedigreed HMMWVs will actually increase in value now, as collectors seek them out even more. Parts, new old stock will go up, but more used parts come available from scrappers to be rehosted on both classes of vehicles. The Government will continue to honor the older dates, but be harsh on those who make the mistake of trying to circumvent the system in place. They will, and should, seek out that first individual or company that falsifies the intent of this auction and make an example of them, hitting them where it hurts, with a repossessed vehicle, fines, and possible criminal charges.
Govt lawyers are free.
This is a gift!

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No the taxpayers foot the bill.

3dAngus said:

Govt lawyers are free.

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Not really. The only difference is, WE as taxpayers pay their hourly fees.

3dAngus said:

This is a gift!

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No, 4,000 surplussed HMMWVs is a gift. But the 25 that are listed is a nice start!

I really really think it's time to shut down this type of discussion. There is NO good that can come from it. None.

I have seen alot of "project" humvees for sale in varios plaves, that are already titled. One could swap all the parts from a good condition "no title offroad use only" vehicle onto the project vehicle that is already titled and it would be perfectly legal.

opcorn:

Fact is this all varies from state to state. Check with any hot rod guys in your state and they can tell you how to legally title almost anything. Might not be easy or cheap, but it would be legal. I've been into off-road motorcycles for 30 years. Sold as off-road only, they can be legally made road legal by following the rules in your state. I see no difference. Again, I'm not saying it would be cheap, but it would be legal.

It would be illegal if you buy it and sign a paper to the fact that it is for off road use only.
It's that little piece of paper that will get you.
I see no problem with buying it as parts truck for titled trucks

B3.3T said:

Fact is this all varies from state to state. Check with any hot rod guys in your state and they can tell you how to legally title almost anything. Might not be easy or cheap, but it would be legal. I've been into off-road motorcycles for 30 years. Sold as off-road only, they can be legally made road legal by following the rules in your state. I see no difference. Again, I'm not saying it would be cheap, but it would be legal.

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Don't see it happening with altering the V.I.N. number the off-road use only will have the V.I.N. on it with will be entered in a national data base that all states use .

Off road use only because it does not conform to FMVSS and EPA. Yet after 21 years of age any vehicle becomes EPA exempt and after 25 years they become FMVSS exempt.

Buy a 1990 or older and technically per the code of federal regulation it is exempt from all the regulations as long as it stays in its original configuration.

My company imports and sells cars that fall under this criteria. This will really become a debate over interpretation of the CFR to be honest.

Not staying I know how that will turn out for someone but that is what the federal law is. Their off road use only branding is contradictory to the law.

Arizona MVD will not register HMMWVs. there is a memo floating around MVD.

With respect to my other moderator team I'm closing this.

I mean it isn't like anyone could read a thread like this and see people discussing how to get around the guidelines set forth by the DLA.

We haven't even had the first sale yet and some people are trying to give them an excuse to pull the plug.