Max towing capacity of a M35?

Jimmy · Oct 19, 2007

Most of you don't have to worry about Mr. Murphy (murpheys law), because he is usually sitting on my shoulders crapping down my back on a daily basis.

sprucemt · Oct 19, 2007

The second one is one I mentioned already, RVs. Used by a private individual for personal pleasure/travel means it's not commercial. Used by a sales rep to sell his brand of tools out of is commercial. If NYS excempts RVs based on equipment then they are technically in violation of the compliance requirements of the FMCSRs and the highway funding which is attached to said compliance

I did not say that NY exempts RV's, did I.
But you make a valid point. So based on that statement any personal vehicle over 10001 lbs used in commerce, such as a duece, then needs either a state DOT # or US DOT #. May not have to have the numbers on the vehicle all the time, but when you are in commerce, they need to be on the vehicle.

Let me clarify, though I thought it was clear, NY state has adopted FMCSA regs, has there own seperate law and has gone one further to in some cases such as a requirement on a fire ex on tank trucks is more extensive than FMCSA.

sprucemt · Oct 19, 2007

rmgill said:
sprucemt said:

When applicable, I do run USDOT numbers, I do follow the law, and I do it safely. I no longer try to find loopholes in the law. It is not worth it.

Click to expand...

Laws that aren't applicable aren't loopholes. They're what they're intended or not intended for. The FMCSA regulates interestate commerciual use of Commercial Motor Vehicles. Where it gets interesting is where it trenches on states like New York or the like that excempt vehicles based on equipment and not use becuase that violates the base principles of the FMCSRs.

Ryan you misread what I wrote.
I run my DOT numbers when required. I am not always required to do so. It is not a loophole nor did I imply that it is a loophole. As a seperate statement, I choose to follow the law vs trying to find a way around the law (loopholes).

Also; What is the difference between interstate commerce and intrastate commerce?

Interstate commerce is trade, traffic, or transportation involving the crossing of a State boundary. Either the vehicle, its passengers, or cargo must cross a State boundary, or there must be the intent to cross a State boundary to be considered an interstate carrier. Intrastate commerce is trade, traffic, or transportation within a single State.

If your operations include interstate commerce, you must comply with the applicable Federal safety regulations and Operating Authority rules, in addition to State and local requirements. You must notify the State in which you plan to register your vehicle(s) of your intentions to operate in interstate commerce to ensure that the vehicle is properly registered for purposes of the International Registration Plan (IRP), and International Fuel Tax Agreement (IFTA). The base State will help you by collecting the appropriate fees and distributing a portion of those fees to the other States in which you operate commercial motor vehicles.

If you operate exclusively in intrastate commerce , you must comply with applicable State and local regulations. The only Federal regulations that are applicable to intrastate operations are: the commercial driver's license (CDL) requirement, for drivers operating commercial motor vehicles as defined in 49 CFR 383.5; controlled substances and alcohol testing for all persons required to possess a CDL; and minimum levels of financial responsibility for the intrastate transportation of certain quantities of hazardous materials and substances.

NY State DOT enforces and regulates, in this state intra-state commerce.All other states should also regulate intra-state commerce with a specific dept.

But again, we disagree on what commerce is.

mangus580 · Oct 19, 2007

com·merce /ˈkɒmərs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kom-ers] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. an interchange of goods or commodities, esp. on a large scale between different countries (foreign commerce) or between different parts of the same country (domestic commerce); trade; business.
2. social relations, esp. the exchange of views, attitudes, etc.
3. sexual intercourse.
4. intellectual or spiritual interchange; communion.
5. (initial capital letter) Also called Commerce Department. Informal. the Department of Commerce.

Pinkie · Oct 19, 2007

I have a 1986 Top Kick with a 3205 CAT and I tow 18,000lbs all the time, I really do not think towing 20,000lb with a deuce, as long as the trailer has correct braking, would be that much of a big deal, disclaimer: of course I am a country boy so what do I know?

rmgill · Oct 19, 2007

sprucemt said:
I did not say that NY exempts RV's, did I.
But you make a valid point. So based on that statement any personal vehicle over 10001 lbs used in commerce, such as a duece, then needs either a state DOT # or US DOT #. May not have to have the numbers on the vehicle all the time, but when you are in commerce, they need to be on the vehicle.

I'm addressing the differentiation between joe blow using a private vehicle and Joe Trucker using a CMV. There are Class B rated Motor Coaches out there that weigh more than a loaded 5 ton and a number of states exempt them on the basis of equipment.

How does NYS license an RV in the Class A size? Class A license or not? Something else? How do they differentiate?

Georgia is interesting, they don't require a Class A or B for a "recreational vehicle". "Recreational Vehicle" is undefined by Ga law. That means we have guys driving around in 30,000 GVW RVs with air brakes on a class C legally in Ga! If you use federal law, it's not defined either (because it's a use application, not equipment). Ga adopted the FMCSAs but the way the code was written was a bit odd. I'd bet that if you looked around, you could find interpretations of NYS law AND it's specific applicability that in fact, violate the requirements of the FMCSA. If NYS absolutely exempts an RV then they are out of compliance. I'll bet you could find that they're doing the same with Buses driven by the police departments. (The compliance/legislative director stated both issues were a consistently misapplied issue with many states).

I'm just trying to explain where the problems with state laws can lie and how their interpretation can vary or differ with how they should either be written to properly comply or how they should be interpreted.

Again, closely check your own state and scrutinize the code and speak to the state FMCSA compliance officer. Ask to speak to the head guy for your state and get the skinny.

(as an aside, I even found an FMCSA agent that didn't understand my additional question and started to say I was commercial (after his absent boss had sent me a letter clearly stating I wasn't) after I directed him to the guidance section, he was surprised and relented saying he'd learned something new that day. )

As to the definition of Commerce, I was, where it applies to the conversation relating to CMVs, applying it to the definition that the FMCSA uses to test if a truck is a CMV or not.

From 383.5
Commerce means (a) any trade, traffic or transportation within the jurisdiction of the United States between a place in a State and a place outside of such State, including a place outside of the United States and (b) trade, traffic, and transportation in the United States which affects any trade, traffic, and transportation described in paragraph (a) of this definition.

and

Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce...

Where it gets interesting is say a farmer traveling 500 miles away for a horse show. Normally farmers don't need a CDL. IF his farm raises horses, guess what, it's a commercial function and he needs a CDL for that trip. If you just happen to have horses and it's not your business, you don't need that CDL for that same trip. :wink:

All that said, NYS could require EVERYONE to put a DOT number on their car or larger vehicle and it wouldn't' matter to the FMCSA. Point is how they require. If they exempt vehicles that the Feds don't allow, there could be an issue (as in Ga). See where I'm driving at?

Oh, and the IFTA/IRP folks, their regs also point to "in commerce" and almost word for word copy the FMCSA definitions. They did at least last I checked.

rmgill · Oct 20, 2007

Reviewing my paperwork from my manila folder of FMCSA letters, I reviewed part 383.3 Applicability.

The rules of this part apply to every person who operates a commercial motor vehicle (CMV) in interstate, foreign, or intrastate commerce, to all employers of such persons and to all States.

So, where 383 is concerned, even if you only operate intrastate, you still have to comply with the FMCSRs. This would on initial viewing include ex Military trucks right? They're not necessarily CMVs. If they're used in Commerce (ie for a business or some sort of remuneration) then they are. If they're used for fun (ie a hobby vehicle) they are NOT CMVs per the definition of a CMV. :wink:

rmgill · Oct 20, 2007

sprucemt said:
Bottleworks, if you can, please post a link to the NC licensing data. In 2005 NY removed all of the non-cdl licensing except for farm. You can review the data on the CDL post in conversations. I realize each state has different laws but what I see is posters thru out steelsoldiers, live nationwide and their opinions and beliefs (including mine, but I really try not to) may be misleading to members not residing in their area. The states were required to adopt FMCSA regs and some have and some have more slowly than others. With your NC license you would be driving illegaly in NY with the combo you just stated. Plus you would be inter-state commerce which is a whole nother subject. The FMCSA regs are supposed to eliminate that issue.

So if NY doesn't like another state's license they refuse to recognize it? How's that work again? The whole point of a unified licensing scheme under the FMCSR's minimum standards is that other states CANNOT require you to get a license there to be legal (plus I believe it violates the full faith and credit clause of the constitution).

Re that NC code, you'll find the definitions
http://law.justia.com/northcarolina/codes/chapter_20/gs_20-4.01.html
You'll note that NC has the full suite of Classes A-C commercial and Non Commercial. While I cannot find it, I expect that NC hasn't changed to be more strict than before. For NC residents, I'd suggest a call to your DOT folks to double check.

Virginia is also interesting for this argument.
46.2-341-4

The following shall be excluded from the definition of commercial motor vehicle: any vehicle when used by an individual solely for his own personal purposes, such as personal recreational activities; or any vehicle which (i) is controlled and operated by a farmer, whether or not it is owned by the farmer, and which is used exclusively for farm use, as defined in § 46.2-698, (ii) is used to transport either agricultural products, farm machinery or farm supplies to or from a farm, (iii) is not used in the operation of a common or contract motor carrier, and (iv) is used within 150 miles of the farmer's farm; or any vehicle operated for military purposes by (a) active duty military personnel, (b) members of the military reserves, (c) members of the national guard on active duty, including personnel on full-time national guard duty, personnel on part-time national guard training, and national guard military technicians (civilians who are required to wear military uniforms), but not U.S. Reserve technicians, and (d) active duty U.S. Coast Guard personnel; or emergency equipment operated by a member of a firefighting, rescue, or emergency entity in the performance of his official duties

Pennsylvania is also similarly permissive. They, by reference incorporate the exemptions in 390.3 into their own code as exemptions and definitions for applicability of their code.
229.4. General applicability.

49 CFR 390.3 (relating to general applicability) incorporated by reference.

Gotta love the guys in Harrisburg for their brevity.

Floridianson · Dec 13, 2009

emmado22 said:
We can argue the legalities of verbage, but one thing NOONE here or anywhere else can change is the Laws of Physics.. When your pulling your "physically overweight for the vehicles brakes/steering/load capacity/whatever" your gonna be in a world of hurt when you cant control the vehicle..... And no laywer and all verbage in the world wont change anything in those few seconds when you figure out you lost control of the truck..

Everyone, when some MV'er kills some soccer mom and her minivan full of kids when the MV'er is within or not within the legal weights, licence class, etc, ALL of us are gonna pay when we give the Govt more ammo to stop sales, stop registration or take away our MV's.

So keep doing stupid things, haul 30,000# in a truck that has data plates for only carrying 6,000# max towed load, dont do a PMCS or pull maintaince on your truck... Then when you kill someone, after the legal stuff YOU go thru and the dust has settled with the lawsuits, when the the DMV/GOVT/GL somehow starts killing off the hobby more than they are already doing, when we get pissed at you, dont say a dam word...

Just my .02..................

Good Call. This is what is going to kill us plus those that want to go faster than 50. Thanks to the one that starts this ball rolling.
Max towed on the pindle is different from what it can carry in the bed hello again.

Stalwart · Dec 13, 2009

I originally wanted to tow all military but power wise, braking and comfort (A/C is nice) I went civilian. I bought an '08 F450 with a 24,500 gooseneck towing capability but selected a hitch and gooseneck rated for 30K. I have towed the M656 on the trailer, Bjorn estimated it at about 17,500 as I recall, and my truck and trailer weigh 18,500 empty. That put me at 36,000 and the truck pulled it like no 5 ton ever would. I have HUGE disc brakes on the truck and on the trailer as well. The trailer stops itself with it's load and the truck does the same with the 5000-6000 lb. of tongue weight I put on the truck. I do drive carefully but I know I have plenty of power for the hills, this isn't the flatlands of the midwest or of Florida where the biggest hill is an overpass, and the braking is exceptional with 4 axles with HUGE disc brakes.

Could I do it with the HEMTT, sure, but power would be lacking.

And no, since I own all the equipment and it is NOT for hire or any commercial purposes, I don't stop at scales, even though the electronic sign tells me to as I weigh at freeway speeds.

JCole · Sep 7, 2011

Legalities aside, towing a large load has less to do with the braking capabilities of the tow vehicle, and more to do with weight distribution and the capabilities of the braking axles under the brunt of the load.

The fact that the m35 is longer and heavier than the average dually pickup truck makes it physically a better tow vehicle from a weight/stability standpoint.

With that said, a gooseneck type trailer with the hitch between the rear two tires would probably be best, and the trailer better have some **** nice brakes.

The engine limitations are similar to any big tractor trailer combo you see on the roads. Sure those trucks make 450 horsepower, but the vehicles weigh in at 80,000 lbs.

My Kenworth makes 525hp and a bunch of torque. My typical vehicle weight on Canadian roads is a little less than my legal 144,000 lbs. On the steeper hills in BC I'll be chugging along at 22km/h.

These conditions are certainly worse than a 10,000 lb duece hauling 30,000 lbs.

My tractor weighs less than double what the duece does, and the trailers (Super B tankers filled with corrosives) are over 120,000 lbs.

The similarities are you're going to have to drive it like it is a big heavy truck. That means long following distances, and slow and steady and smooth through the turns and lane changes.

CobraCDR · Sep 8, 2011

TM 9-2320-386-10 states 6,000lbs for towing. However, all statistics provided in the -10 are intended for worst case off-road terrain, vehicle fully loaded and towing. I think you have a little room to work with beyond the 6,000lbs on the highway, but for how far you want to push it?? I think braking would become a problem well before the ability of the deuce to get the trailer rolling.

Commander5993 · Feb 24, 2013

OK, Ive been searching today... And there is a lot of posts here on SS about how heavy of a trailer you can pull with the deuce.

BUT What about Payload (Whats in the Deuce Bed) PLUS pulling a Trailer??

Here is what I want to do:
We have an M35A2 that we have owned for a little over a year, which we have been through it top to bottom in maintenance, repairs, and, upgrades.
We currently have approx 9,000lbs IN the Bed under the tarp.
We have a class IV Ball-type receiver, with a 12 inch Drop Hitch rated at 12,000lbs, on the Deuce.
We want to pull a 9,900lb GVWR Dual Axle Cargo Trailer that will be fully loaded nearly to the 9,900lbs including the trailer weight (And yes we are weighing it to make sure it is not over)

We have added an Tekonsha P3 Electric Brake Controller to the Deuce, and the Trailer has Electric Brakes on Both Axles.
(And Yes we installed an alternator+battery 12v system, and a 24v truck light signal to 12v trailer light signal conversion relay box, which connects to a 7 Blade RV Trailer Plug mounted above the hitch)

Brakes and related, on the Deuce have all been checked, maintenance, and are in Full Working Condition.

Would be driving at 50mph, long distance.

So the Question is:
Can the deuce pull a 9,900lbs trailer with 9,000lbs in the Bed?

How about Up Hills? Especially if we get in states where the highway goes through part of the rocky mountains?
I know it would be slow, yes. But would it damage anything going up Long Inclines? Transmission Over heat? Etc?

Thanks

Commander5993 · Feb 24, 2013

***updated my original post above***

rmgill · Feb 24, 2013

Commander, I think you'll be over the weight of what the truck can comfortably pull. My own move with the Dingo on a trailer behind was 26,200 lbs as it turns out. That was still slow but not badly so.

Think about your total capacity and what you're licensed for as well. You're talking mid 30,000 lbs for Gross combined weight. The Techonsha is the way to go, BUT I suspect that the better solution on the trailer is a pintle hook/Ring combo. That's much heavier weight and is more forgiving in the heavier weight classes.

In my setup, I had the dingo on the platform trailer as far forwards as it would go with put more weight on the deuce's axles and helped balance the weight better between the trailer and the truck to start with. That setup was very stable.

Is there a GCWR of the duece in the manuals or is it left to just do one's sums?

rmgill · Feb 24, 2013

commander, I have 4 750+ mile trips on my deuce towing a load right at 10,000 lbs behind the truck. I have three trip report posted:

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?9073-Atlanta-Ga-to-PA-2007
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?4361-Deuce-Trailer-Dingo-Atl-Ga-gt-FIG-Pa
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?5552-Hatfield-PA-to-Reading-and-Back-to-Atlanta

My weights were:
Weight for the truck was:
6460 lbs on the steer axle
10720 lbs on the drive tandems
9020 lbs on the trailer's tandem axles
Gross weight was 26200 lbs

For the weight your planning, figure on 35-45mph most of the way. Slower on hills.

quickfarms · Feb 24, 2013

rmgill said:
Don, as I've posted before, unless you're hauling in relation to a business or for some sort of renumeration (prize winnings are NOT renumeration), the FMCSA does not care if you've got a car or a 80,000 Gross Combined weight tractor/trailer setup. The relevant sections are 390.3 (f)(3). The definitions (in commerce) in part 383 also exclude our hobby vehicles from the DOT number/license requirements. Your minimum standard will be your state's license requirements. (the feds don't consider us commercial and don't care).

That is good info.

mohicanjoe · Jun 1, 2016

Goday !

I have a new Duece and a half question. This is a tractor not a long frame question. What is the towing capacity of a duece and a half tractor ? Is it the same as a Duece and a half truck ?? I am in Florida. The application is to pull a Cape Canaveral Custom Deltal 28 foot boat (8600 pounds without 140 gallons diesel/ 100 gallons water/ pluse 50 gallons waste) (8600+1400+300). Plus triple axle trailer rated at 9 Tons.

Is a multi fuel Duece a good choice ?

Thank you for your consideration.
Joe

mohicanjoe · Jun 1, 2016

Oh, and by the way I have contacted five of the army truck dealers who do not have a clue. Today it was we just purchase and sell.

Thank You

dmetalmiki · Jun 1, 2016

Not another can I, should I, would I, ought to (risk it) Post. NO. Stick to your awsome looking wrecker and that nice trailer. Great looking outfit.

Max towing capacity of a M35?

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