Power steering for the Deuce?

gringeltaube said:

Plus there is a considerable amount of slack now (about 1/4 turn with no direct action on the front wheels).
G.

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Good job guys! Thanks for all the good info. Thinking about this upgrade is making me feel like I've got a bad rash and it's time to scratch it!

Am I correct in understanding that no steering movement happens within the 1/4 turn of slack or is it that there is some movement, just not power assisted?

If there is a 1/4 turn of total slack does that lead to wandering when driving?

I'd have to check nut my trucks probably have 12 or 15 degrees of slack if that.

Again, thanks

Lance

LanceRobson said:

.........................
Am I correct in understanding that no steering movement happens within the 1/4 turn of slack or is it that there is some movement, just not power assisted?
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To answer Matt's question ..... I was describing what happens IF the engine would shut down....

No "slack" at all and very precise, normally...

G.

Just to add a little I did the same conversion that G did and it has worked great. The only problem that I have is at times it acts like I dont have enough fluid so I am going to use a larger res. But I blew a head gasket last week and it is now the priority. G is a great help on this and I,d like to thank you again life is just to busy.
Vaughn

kochevnik said:

.....................................................what drag link did you start with, what was it off of and is there a part number

5) and ditto again for the ball joints - do you have part numbers for those ?

Many thanks.

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Part#: all I could find is what the picture shows.
This draglink W/ tie rods must be for a particular Ford truck application, at least the back of the joint is stamped with the oval.
The size of the cone is the same as the one from the original Deuce draglink.

G.

gringeltaube said:

...opposite to "full hydro" this remains being a system with everything mechanically connected. If the pump quits working you just loose the "engine-powered" assist but not control over the vehicle! It certainly allows to bring your heavy toy to a safe stop, should the engine suddenly die.

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I don't mean to be argumentative, but I want to clarify something about full-hydro systems. If the engine dies, you're not going to loose all ability to steer the vehicle. You're just going to lose the power generated by the hydraulic pump, much like any other power-steering system. The only thing that's going to result in a total loss of steering is a failure in the orbital valve (not sure how likely that is if you're using quality parts) or a blown hose (which would be almost exactly the same thing as having a tie-rod or drag-link failure). I don't mean to take this thread off-topic, but full-hydro is a viable option and can be made perfectly safe.

Gringletaube,

May I pick your brain a bit? If I purchase a 4 port Ross HF542996 like this one:



Am I correct in reading previous posts that the top front two lines are for a Ram assist? This particular box is in a 1980 Ford LN700.

What else would I have to purchase to mimic your install? Would I need the Pitman Arm, Drag link, Lower steering column shaft & flange off this truck as well? I missed where you obtained your custom Pitman Arm.

Thx.

Unforgiven said:

Am I correct in reading previous posts that the top front two lines are for a Ram assist? This particular box is in a 1980 Ford LN700.

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If you mean front of vehicle, YES, correct!

What else would I have to purchase to mimic your install? Would I need the Pitman Arm, Drag link, Lower steering column shaft & flange off this truck as well?

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Yes, get that all if still in good shape. I will PM you details then what to do with each part.

I missed where you obtained your custom Pitman Arm.

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Better ask HOW..... Yes, I will also tell you exactly what to do with that part....

G.

is there any state where full hyrdo steering is legal?? i have never heard of any, i am thinking this is a DOT rule? anything can go wrong of course, but the chances of a maintained system loosing mechanical connection is way lower than that of a hose failing. some piece of debris from the road could take out a hose, but probably not a drag link or tie rod.
just my 2¢

tom

gringeltaube said:

The very popular Ross Hydrapower HF54 for example?

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m-35tom said:

is there any state where full hyrdo steering is legal?? i have never heard of any, i am thinking this is a DOT rule? anything can go wrong of course, but the chances of a maintained system loosing mechanical connection is way lower than that of a hose failing. some piece of debris from the road could take out a hose, but probably not a drag link or tie rod.
just my 2¢

tom

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More importantly, nobody has ever been able to cite a specific rule that makes full-hydro steering illegal (somebody posted a $ bounty on pirate years ago that has never been claimed). Full-hydro steering isn't any more or less illegal than any other modification that could be deemed unsafe (lift kits, bumpers, etc.). Sure, there are rules about unsafe modifications and vehicles, but there is nothing that SPECIFICALLY makes full-hydro steering illegal. I say modify-to-suit, but be prepared to deal with the consequences. A responsibly modified vehicle worries me a lot less than a poorly maintained one.

The only full hydraulics I'm aware of are for dedicated off-road purposes, heavy construction & rock crawling. DOT requires full mechanical connections in the event of hydraulic failure.

RAM assist and RAM steering are similar but not the same.

...and I've gotta dispute the likelihood of failure in a mechanical vs. hydraulic system. What makes hydraulic hoses any more prone to failure? It's all about proper engineering. A good system isn't going to put those hoses in harm's way, and those hoses are TOUGH. What else is there to worry about? Chaffing? Stretching? Pinching? Again, just a matter of doing things right. Look at all the hydraulic systems that function reliably in critical applications, from aviation to industrial to...

The truth is, if you lose one tie-rod or a single piece of hardware, you're in the same situation that seems so likely in a hydraulic system. I don't think full-hydro steering is anything to be scared of, but run away screaming if you encounter anything that looks like it belongs on this website.

gringeltaube said:

If you mean front of vehicle, YES, correct!

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I meant in the photo the two lines sticking out the top, nearest the front of the truck. That's where you circled to tap for a Ram in a previous post. I am curious, are you also running a ram with your conversion. Does it help during low speed/no speed turning? The Ram option is appealing to me for both parking & highway dampening. I'm curious if Rams also help with bump steer?

Is there any way to tell the condition of this equipment from the photo? I'm 900 miles away from the junk yard. The gas & time to go check it out would negate any savings from used parts.

Since you've done this conversion, or should I say invented it, what do you think is a fair price for the box + parts?

lift kits and bumper height changes are illegal, just not enforced very well. maybe unforgiven will look into DOT rules for us??

Unforgiven said:

The only full hydraulics I'm aware of are for dedicated off-road purposes, heavy construction & rock crawling. DOT requires full mechanical connections in the event of hydraulic failure.

RAM assist and RAM steering are similar but not the same.

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Can you please cite something specific? I'd just like to know if indeed I am wrong, and I'd like to be able to share any reference you provide with other people I know that would be equally interested.

m-35tom said:

lift kits and bumper height changes are illegal, just not enforced very well. maybe unforgiven will look into DOT rules for us??

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Yeah, there are some specific rules related to lift kits and bumpers and other modifications. But those are all regional, and nobody has ever been able to find/cite ANYTHING that specifically prohibits full-hydro steering. To the best of my understanding, this means that there's also nothing that specifically requires the mechanical connections between the steering wheel and the steering knuckles that we're all so comfortable with.

I would really like to go with full-hydro myself.

I've been waiting to hear if it is or isn't legal.

This debate has been going on for a while.

I've seen trash trucks with full-hydro

m-35tom said:

lift kits and bumper height changes are illegal, just not enforced very well. maybe unforgiven will look into DOT rules for us??

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I can try. But I'm certainly not a lawyer. I don't think lift kits are illegal, nor are bumper height changes. Usually, there is a minimum/maximum bumper height requirement. As long as the lift doesn't exceed that I believe it's okay. Otherwise Rancho Suspension would have been out of business decades ago.

I see trucks daily that are clearly in violation. Here in Vegas in the late '80's & early '90's the police cracked down HARD on all lifted trucks. They basically disappeared. Then, slowly they crept back with the massive influx of new residents from Southern California. For some reason, the police stopped enforcing the bumper checks. Now everyone, their mother, grandmother, nephew & niece haul 80 mph + in jacked up Dodge Rams.

DOT HS 808 878

That helps narrow down what Standards to look under. There are tens of thousands of pages of standards. The link above summarizes each section.

I'm not sure what you were looking for, hydraulic steering or lift kits. Anyway, if it's NOT specifically in a standard then it's "unofficially" okay. However, like all governmental standards, there's a catch-all clause to fill in the gaps. So even though a particular topic is not explicitly found in a Standard, an inspector may still be able to declare the vehicle unsafe and yank your plates. For example, the scarysteering.com trucks might not be explicitly forbidden but they can still be taken off the road by an inspector.

Hope it helps.

I was talking about full-hydro steering, and was only making a comparison to lift kits in order to illustrate a point. I was hoping that you'd be able to point me to something specific. I haven't read those DOT standards, but I know that many people have - and to-date, nobody has found anything. Have you personally ever read such a standard? Either about mechanical steering linkage being required, or full-hydro steering being illegal? If not, why are you so certain that it's illegal and/or unsafe? I'm really not trying to bust yer balls, but so many people are SURE that it's illegal (it's got to be, right?) and yet nobody has ever been able to cite a specific rule or standard or whatever. I'm not trying to tell you that you should build or use a full-hydro system, but I plan to. We all have to take responsibility for the modifications that we make to our vehicles, and I wouldn't drive anything that I didn't think was safe.

I read it on about a thousand rock crawling websites. But I've never visited DOT to verify it. The rock crawlers use full hydraulic cylinder steering. And they have to trailer their rigs on the road b/c of it. I suppose if I have time I later I can try to find the regulation on mechanical steering linkages. Ram assist is almost as good & is perfectly legal on the street.

I think the reason full hydraulic is illegal is in case the cylinder pops a seal. At least with Ram assist, if the ram pops you still have mechanical ties to the wheels.

jesusgatos said:

................................................... A responsibly modified vehicle worries me a lot less than a poorly maintained one.

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I like that one!

G.