Cooling upgrade system.

ryanruck said:

Admittedly, we don't have a complete picture available of the dynamics at play to form a solid thesis. There may be any number of things at play to explain what I measured. That's why I thought a total engine picture or video with a thermal imager would give a more complete picture of the temperature state of the block versus my little spot thermometer.

Also the increase was potentially small enough to be affected by environmental variables since the weather was warmer all day Wednesday and I made the drive at a time only after it had started to cool off.

In the end, I think the most important takeaway from the data and observations I collected was the decrease in frequency of fan engagements and perceived reduction in the duration of those engagements which gives an overall impression of increase in cooling system efficiency, likely due to improved and more uniform coolant flow in the system. The fact is this block design does result in a dead space for coolant flow in this area and has always been an issue (which the turbo engines exacerbated) and, this kit works to eliminate that and improve system coolant flow. That's my takeaway given what I've got at hand to work with. And like I said, it's going to be up to the buyer to decide if the kit is worth the cost vs benefit. Personally I like addressing a known design issue and having the kit at a more reasonable price than other, similar systems that are designed differently.

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I agree. But if the data is correct, I don’t see any way that it is good. And I’d agree that further testing would be required.

If heat is being taken from the front of the engine to the rear somehow, that would cause the fan to run less frequently since the sensors for the fan are located on the front of the engine.

MaverickH1 said:

I agree. But if the data is correct, I don’t see any way that it is good. And I’d agree that further testing would be required.
If heat is being taken from the front of the engine to the rear somehow, that would cause the fan to run less frequently since the sensors for the fan are located on the front of the engine.

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I do not have one of these yet. I have other issues I am working on. But I think ryanruck's analysis still needs some fine tuning. And I think we may be looking at the issue incorrectly. (And I may not be as smart as you because I was not as smart as you Maverick to clearly understand the data as fast as you.) I think the benefit here is that heat is being more evenly spread against the entire engine and although I am not a metallurgist I have been told the failure with engines come at a hire frequency where you have variables(one side being cooler than the other) in heat across a part or parts.

So what would be good as a test a similar model same external temp running the same amount of time end seeing front end and back end temperatures are. If the new part gives more consistency as it appears ryanruck's test shows then this is to me a no brainer. Like Centramatic's it may not be neccessary but it should add to longevity.

Please feel free to correct me as to what I do not understand here.

... My two cents which is probably not worth that.
Jeffy

So what we have here is a block which does a poor job of evenly flowing coolant to the rear cylinders of the block. This is not entirely uncommon in older American V8s but is particularly bad in these engines. The original 6.2s suffered the greatest not because the cooling issue was resolved in the 6.5 and 6.5T but because they improved the strength in the later blocks with the GEP engines blocks being the most improved. The turbo engines run hotter still, simply due to the added heat from the turbocharging without intercooling (or post cooling) of the intake charge. All of these engines benefit from these kits because the overall block temps are reduced AND the rear cylinders remain at the same temps as the front.

OK so there is some confusing data going around. Actually it is not so confusing. The coolant fan runs off of a coolant temperature sensor mounted inside the cooling system taking a direct measure of the coolant itself. The fact that the fan comes on less and for less time is directly indicative of the reduced overall cooling system temps. Taking external IR temps is helpful when comparing external block temps front to back for balance but is really not a good measure of actual internal temps. External underhood temperatures vary tremendously due to the influence of the exhaust manifolds which run at many times the coolant and block temps. As mentioned before by me, EGTs are worthless in this case as they have nothing to do with block temperatures and cooling system efficiency and therefore are not effected by this set-up.

One of the big factors in me building these was I found that a lot of air was being trapped in the rear of the block and would not self bleed. At first I just put in brake bleeders in the rear plates so I could bleed out the air. Great idea I thought and it worked, BUT after a spirited drive at full temps the air was back. So like a lot of engines there was a propensity to aerate the coolant, likely from pump cavitation and the localised boiling over at the rear of the block due to the cooling imbalance. So that is when I went to my old standby for high dollar race engines, coolant balancing.

First I just went on a Google search to see if I could save myself the time fabricating and just buy one. I found two set-ups that were identical so somebody copied the other. Anyway, both though were just not done right and with the materials used very overpriced. So here we are after a lot of work testing and retesting and fabricating a system which works to constantly flow coolant to the rear of the block and completely bleed the system as you drive.

I assure you all that this works and works well. Again I have NOT invented something new, heck look at the back of any Nascar V8 and you will find the same basic set-up. I just put it all together and did the fabrication so you could bolt it on and go.

Is it too late to get one?

FKAM said:

Is it too late to get one?

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Nope, do you want to pick it up when it is ready or have me ship it. I am in Kamas, UT.

911joeblow said:

Nope, do you want to pick it up when it is ready or have me ship it. I am in Kamas, UT.

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PM Sent

Thanks Fred.

I am interested in ordering a cooling upgrade kit for my M998. I am currently stationed in Germany and Ebay will not allow me to proceed to checkout. I am US military with an APO address. My HMMWV is military surplus. Thank you for your assistance.

Brendon

No problem, I will PM you. All kits are a little delayed with AN fitting supplier issues but they are going out this month and from there on out I will be in stock for immediate shipment.

Bmurp76 said:

I am interested in ordering a cooling upgrade kit for my M998. I am currently stationed in Germany and Ebay will not allow me to proceed to checkout. I am US military with an APO address. My HMMWV is military surplus. Thank you for your assistance.

Brendon

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Thanks for your service!

So an unexpected but added benefit of these kits.

A long time buddy/client of mine was one of the very first guys to get a prototype kit that was very rudimentary (steel fitings etc..) compared to what they are now. He was having a hard time keeping his truck cool and with a trip to Moab planned he wanted a kit before they were really ready for sale. Anyway he installed the kit and like others on here was pleased with the immediate results. So he went to Moab and had a week of great off-roading and camping, fishing etc...

On one of the last days there he was showing off the functional but rather ugly version of the kit I made for him and the guy looking at it noticed that the system was purging air back to the overflow tank anytime the truck was running. While that is an intentional function of the kit, there should not be constant air in the system to bleed. So with a phone call to me, I quickly diagnosed he had a head gasket or block failure allowing combustion gasses and pressures into the cooling system. Normally when this happens a large air/steam pocket forms and the excess pressure pushes coolant to the top of the overflow and you blow the cap limit and vent out coolant until you overheat and are stuck on the side of the road. But because this kit bleeds the air back to the coolant overflow tank, the coolant level in the tank never really changes and when the overflow cap pressure limit is reached it just burps the air/combustion gasses out and no fluid is lost. Further the balanced temperatures allowed for near normal operating temps even in the Moab desert with a blown head-gasket/block issue!.

So with a keen eye on the temps he finished his weekend and drove back to Salt Lake City. With some help from his buddies he pulled both heads and found a blown headgasket in cylinder number 8 allowing combustion into the cooling jacket. He had overheated and lost coolant a few weeks before (when the gasket failed) then adding the kit which prompted him to get it from me in the first place. So even with a blown head-gasket he was able to put 2000 miles of hard driving on the truck! Pretty cool.

911joeblow said:

So an unexpected but added benefit of these kits.

A long time buddy/client of mine was one of the very first guys to get a prototype kit that was very rudimentary (steel fitings etc..) compared to what they are now. He was having a hard time keeping his truck cool and with a trip to Moab planned he wanted a kit before they were really ready for sale. Anyway he installed the kit and like others on here was pleased with the immediate results. So he went to Moab and had a week of great off-roading and camping, fishing etc...

On one of the last days there he was showing off the functional but rather ugly version of the kit I made for him and the guy looking at it noticed that the system was purging air back to the overflow tank anytime the truck was running. While that is an intentional function of the kit, there should not be constant air in the system to bleed. So with a phone call to me, I quickly diagnosed he had a head gasket or block failure allowing combustion gasses and pressures into the cooling system. Normally when this happens a large air/steam pocket forms and the excess pressure pushes coolant to the top of the overflow and you blow the cap limit and vent out coolant until you overheat and are stuck on the side of the road. But because this kit bleeds the air back to the coolant overflow tank, the coolant level in the tank never really changes and when the overflow cap pressure limit is reached it just burps the air/combustion gasses out and no fluid is lost. Further the balanced temperatures allowed for near normal operating temps even in the Moab desert with a blown head-gasket/block issue!.

So with a keen eye on the temps he finished his weekend and drove back to Salt Lake City. With some help from his buddies he pulled both heads and found a blown headgasket in cylinder number 8 allowing combustion into the cooling jacket. He had overheated and lost coolant a few weeks before (when the gasket failed) then adding the kit which prompted him to get it from me in the first place. So even with a blown head-gasket he was able to put 2000 miles of hard driving on the truck! Pretty cool.

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Great info! Thanks for the update and info.

Slight change to the rear plates design, now with hex flange to counter wrench when installing the fittings. No real function change but another slight improvement.

OK for all who have ordered but not yet received your kit... The next guy in line is OK waiting another couple of weeks for his kit. Who needs a kit ASAP? I have one kit that was used as a mock-up and has some handling marks and light scratches but is 100% functional I can get out right now. It has the new plate design as well.

The rest of the kits are waiting on the AN fitting supplier to get to me the overdue order but will go out immediately when they arrive.

Thanks!

***UPDATE***

For all those with pre-orders...

Thank you all for your patience. My AN fitting supplier has made a series of errors starting with shipping two weeks late, then having sent the wrong size fittings, and now has again shipped late but yet to arrive (next day or two). Assuming all is well with this shipment ALL pre-orders will go out by Monday. If the order is not correct or incomplete I will update again here. This has been a frustrating situation for me and I am sure for some of you. If at any time anyone feels they need to cancel, I will refund you right away. On a positive note, during the down time waiting for the fittings I have streamlined the kits and made some slight improvements mainly effecting the appearance and fit and finish. Thanks for your patience and understanding!

I have read about this addition and looked at the install pics. I have some questions about the nature of this. 1. How do you know which way the coolant is actually flowing? I hope is isn't drawing from the top of the motor because that his the hot coolant coming from the motor. 2. Does the coolant actually flow and what kind of volume? In a semi sealed system there has to be a draw or push to get any kind of flow. I read the post where someone took some temp readings and looked like they increased. Is it possible that you either are back flowing hot coolant or you may have disrupted the flow? I like the theory, but I am always skeptical of someone being able to out think a team of very high paid engineers that do nothing all day but this kind of work. If there was a simple way of cooling, why didn't the engineers take advantage of this?

Thank you for your question. The crossover pipe is on the draw side of the system. This kit draws stagnant coolant/air from the back of the block and allows for the rear cylinders to balance with the fronts.

The volume is not very high in fact you may have seen some posts previously about that. This is not a more = better situation. A lot of testing went into the sizing before the current set-up.

No there is no back flow with this as we are not changing the basic system flow pattern, but we are improving it. I have said this more than once, that this is nothing new. When you force coolant in and out the same side of the block, the opposite side will suffer. If you look at high end racing engines that has been solved by a complex system that introduces coolant evenly across the block and heads with coolant manifolds and individual coolant paths. To do this in a street application is overly complicated and expensive and thus relegated to F1 and other similar levels of Motorsport.

Being an Engineer myself I am not so sure about the 'High paid' part but to comment on why didn't they do this, engineering is not what we as engineer's always want but what we are given to work within. Whether it be financial limitations, packaging limitations, material limitations, testing limitations, etc ... These engines we're far from a stellar leap forward, in fact they are little more than big block Chevy engines bandaided to run diesel. The same engineer's mind you built an inferior block in the early 6.2s with rear cylinder and crank failures. Later improving the blocks to add in strength but never really addressing the temperature imbalance. Look up engine failures for these engines and you will find rear cylinder failures over and over again.

Overall system temperature is not dropped significantly with this kit as we have not added capacity or volume with this kit. We HAVE improved efficiency and balance as well as an active rear engine bleed to eliminate steam/air pockets at the back of the block.

Every member with a kit installed can attest to the fit and function of the kits. Thanks again for the questions.

>>>UPDATE<<<

OK so the fitting showed up late on Friday. Nearly all was correct but some was not. I elected to spend the last three days doing a secondary machining process on the fittings to correct the lingering issues. All is correct now and the kits are assembled. My Wife and I are packing up all the kits for shipping over the next few days. The finished product is improved in some finite ways to make it a cleaner install and simplify future kits (assuming I can ever get correct fittings!!). I again apologize for the longer than anticipated wait but hopefully you will all find the wait was worth it in the end.

I have a few additional kits available in this batch for those interested. Thanks!

how to get one from you and how much ship to zip 10506. thanks

newhmmwvguy said:

how to get one from you and how much ship to zip 10506. thanks

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PM on the way... Thanks!