Civilian wheel cylinders

Tracer said:

View attachment 735419 Thanks tobyS. I have a couple of these Wagner Lockheed wheel cylinders that I picked up recently. The boxes are old and yellow and the dust boots are stiff, but the metal is rust free. I planned on rebuilding them with the NAPA 45 kit, but the number FD3087 didn't match the number 4419 on the box and that puzzled me. Now I know...……..Thanks again.

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Take the cover off and look at the piston. Does it have an inverted cone for the push rod? The kit for rebuild will work just fine....if you start with the right piston. I sure wish I had known my pistons were wrong before I ordered a 45 kit and new bleeders.

I just ordered one of the 1 1/2" from Oreilly. Nobody has the number WC-746 but there are many sources for the WC-37317. I only ordered one so we can inspect the piston for the V. I'll report back tomorrow.

tobyS said:

Take the cover off and look at the piston. Does it have an inverted cone for the push rod? The kit for rebuild will work just fine....if you start with the right piston. I sure wish I had known my pistons were wrong before I ordered a 45 kit and new bleeders.

I just ordered one of the 1 1/2" from Oreilly. Nobody has the number WC-746 but there are many sources for the WC-37317. I only ordered one so we can inspect the piston for the V. I'll report back tomorrow.

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Here is a picture of the piston in my Wagner Lockheed wheel cylinders.

Tracer said:

View attachment 735462 Here is a picture of the piston in my Wagner Lockheed wheel cylinders.

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It looks like you have the right piston. Mine is wrong. I still would take it apart and confirm the spring. The one I had with the wrong spring was in a Wagner body.

If someone can use their pistons, the rest of what I have will work (posted a parts classified). It's not rusted and otherwise new.

By this site.. https://www.partstech.com/Wagner-Brake-Drum-Brake-Wheel-Cylinder/details/BCSJ-WC746
The wagner interchange is F746 and that the 37317 is a direct interchange. Will be watching to see if your 37317 pistons are inverted.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

tobyS said:

It looks like you have the right piston. Mine is wrong. I still would take it apart and confirm the spring. The one I had with the wrong spring was in a Wagner body.

If someone can use their pistons, the rest of what I have will work (posted a parts classified). It's not rusted and otherwise new.

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10-4 toby, these wheel cylinders have sat on a shelf for quite some time. The boots are dry and stiff, so I had planned to disassemble them and re build them using the NAPA 45 wheel cylinder kit, and the Wagner body and pistons.

clinto said:

I agree that the Chinese have/had a spotty reputation. A friend in manufacturing once told me "The Chinese are really good at replicating 75% of the quality at 40% of the price". I think that's a pretty valid way of saying it.

I think it's fair to say that now in 2018, the Chinese have upped their game. I suspect, unlike 30 years ago, it's not safe to think "Made in China = junk".

When Japan began building their manufacturing industry it was criticized a lot (older readers will certainly remember the sorry reputation Japanese cars had in the sixties and seventies). But eventually they got better. China is following the same path.

At this point, I think you have to judge items made in China on a case-by-case basis. I've had good luck with the Chinese 4419s, YMMV.

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Two things with Chinese manufacturing-- first off, they are notorious for making really good quality "pre-run" or "first run" batches of products. Essentially these are the products delivered for initial evaluation and testing. After the testing is done, or a contract is secured, the actual production run is usually of noticeably lesser quality. I have seen this with my own eyes when my dad was active in the wire and cable industry when I was growing up. I have travelled with him overseas on some of his business trips and witnessed first hand their ideas of manufacturing-- and don't get me started on the crappy conditions, lack of safety, lack of quality control, etc. But then again, that is how they can manage to undercut domestic manufacturing. Of course, between corporate greed and the consumer's general "buy cheapest" mindset, it is the death knell for quality.

I vividly remember a job my dad was sent on years back. There was a company called Komar Mfg. that used to be located in Altoona PA. They made power cords for black and decker appliances and Patrick, the owner, took pride in keeping that plant running like a swiss watch. They had very low q/c rejection rates and used quality materials. Then they lost out to Chinese manufacturing who undercut them so badly that they had to shut their doors. When my dad came out to oversee decommissioning of some of the machinery, Patrick talked with me and told me that B&D would rather buy a shipping container of cables from China, then subsequently scrap two thirds of them right out of the container due to q/c issues than buy from his company (where q/c rejection averaged less than one in 300 units)-- all because some bean counter said B&D could save an average of 5 cents per appliance. The irony is that the manufacturing equipment is being bought up and shipped overseas, further hurting us. (for those not familiar with the wire and cable industry, some of the manufacturing machinery is ancient-- it is not uncommon to have a machine that was initially built in the 1920's still in service (updated significantly of course, but the "carcass" is still very old). Once shipped overseas, its gone, and so went our capabilities with it.

Z

Man, all this Chinese BS is depressing
I just want my brakes to work so I can drive my bad a$$ American truck!

The larger 1 1/2" cylinder WC-37317 from Oreilly has the proper V piston and spring. I took one apart standing at the counter.

I'll have 2 in hand tomorrow. These will be the ones for the rear axle on my A3 4x4. The front already has them. I'll have 18% more area on each piston, but taking 2 cylinders off, so volume should not be an issue.

This would seem to be a good modification, single circuit or 2, for any bobbed M35, due to going to the larger tires.

My NAPA wheel cylinders showed up today & i sent them back. They looked awful. Beat up boxes, split boots on 2 of them, copper washer bent all up. Im going to order the Raybestos from Summit & see if I have any better luck

tobyS said:

The larger 1 1/2" cylinder WC-37317 from Oreilly has the proper V piston and spring. I took one apart standing at the counter.

I'll have 2 in hand tomorrow. These will be the ones for the rear axle on my A3 4x4. The front already has them. I'll have 18% more area on each piston, but taking 2 cylinders off, so volume should not be an issue.

This would seem to be a good modification, single circuit or 2, for any bobbed M35, due to going to the larger tires.

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Did you get the new wheel cylinders from "O Reily's" ? How did they look ?

rustystud said:

Did you get the new wheel cylinders from "O Reily's" ? How did they look ?

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They look good, inside and out. No markings to even tell where they were made, but the quality seemed to be fine and rubber seemed fresh, new, not NOS. Spring is the new style.

The NAPA wc were marked "made in China" by the way.

Consider having them sleeved

Hi All

While my MVs are a different time period, older, I would offer the following comment on replacing wheel cylinders or master cylinders. Consider having them sleeved, my experience is that it is a once and done effort. My trucks are all around 75 years old and cylinders started getting hard to get many moons ago. First time I went this route with was 35 years ago, that truck is still running the same cylinders "no pitting" they were sleeved with brass. Yes I have replaced the rubber cups but that generally is every 10 years when I replace the rubber brake hoses.

Before I did the first truck the cylinders were lasting maybe 5 years before they would pit and start leaking. After doing the first truck and what I've seen with it, I would not even consider putting a NOS or "new part" on. When restoring a vehicle now I send out the original cylinders or ones in good enough condition to sleeve have them done and consider the cylinder replacement problem handled. I've had the same luck with having master cylinders sleeved.

Now you have your choice of having them done in brass or stainless steel. Only negative I have ever heard about sleeving, was a problem with using silicon brake fluid. There were reports that the it would weep around the outside of the sleeve. In my case I've stuck with Dot 3, the normal process of doing a brake fluid flush every 5 years and of course new fluid when I replace the rubber parts seems to be doing the job.

Cheers Phil

Putting sleeves in sounds expensive.

I'll sell 6 new bodies, rubber and springs (3 old design spring and 3 new design) - cheap. Pistons are wrong, not V shaped, so your old pistons need cleaned and installed...all new otherwise. I'm going to the larger size as explained above.

tobyS said:

Putting sleeves in sounds expensive. ...

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Hi TobyS

Not as expensive as you might think last time I had a set done price was about equal to the price for NOS for cylinders that were getting very hard to find. Place I had all three trucks and two cars done was White Post Restorations in Virginia and they are still in business, just checked. Oh yes forgot to mention lifetime warranted if you don't use DOT 5.

As I said just something to consider.

Cheers Phil

CMPPhil said:

Hi All

While my MVs are a different time period, older, I would offer the following comment on replacing wheel cylinders or master cylinders. Consider having them sleeved, my experience is that it is a once and done effort. My trucks are all around 75 years old and cylinders started getting hard to get many moons ago. First time I went this route with was 35 years ago, that truck is still running the same cylinders "no pitting" they were sleeved with brass. Yes I have replaced the rubber cups but that generally is every 10 years when I replace the rubber brake hoses.

Before I did the first truck the cylinders were lasting maybe 5 years before they would pit and start leaking. After doing the first truck and what I've seen with it, I would not even consider putting a NOS or "new part" on. When restoring a vehicle now I send out the original cylinders or ones in good enough condition to sleeve have them done and consider the cylinder replacement problem handled. I've had the same luck with having master cylinders sleeved.

Now you have your choice of having them done in brass or stainless steel. Only negative I have ever heard about sleeving, was a problem with using silicon brake fluid. There were reports that the it would weep around the outside of the sleeve. In my case I've stuck with Dot 3, the normal process of doing a brake fluid flush every 5 years and of course new fluid when I replace the rubber parts seems to be doing the job.

Cheers Phil

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That is a great way to go if you have the money up front to get the job done. I've considered going that way several times lately. The shop I was going to use "cold sleeves" the liners.
The fit is so tight this way there is usually never any problems with weeping of any kind.

Sure Phil, especially on those hard to find cylinders. Are there ready made sleeves?

tobyS said:

Sure Phil, especially on those hard to find cylinders. Are there ready made sleeves?

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I know that the shop that rebuilds the Deuce air-pacs has ready made sleeves. The shop that I was going to use just freezes a tube of stainless into the heated unit. Then they bore it to specs.

Got the Raybestos WC4419 from Summit today. They are Chinese but have correct springs & pistons. Everything looks good but the copper washers, they were beat all to ****.

Summit looks to be out of stock, currently. They are saying a "tentative" shipping date of Sept 5, if ordered today. Lovely......