No start after button replacement.

Floridianson · Mar 27, 2019

Ok starting this thread because we were derailing another.
Allen aka Florida AKM bought a nonrunner and looks like both the engine heads were removed at one time. We decided to remove the IP Head and yes the button was off but also the spring was broken for the plunger. Allen got all the parts needed to fix that and to keep a long story short we replaced the Head. All new filters, fuel and additive. Bypassed FDC. Checked working in tank pump and have some fuel flow at the head and center head plug. Checked the delivery valve was ok. Checked over flow valve and Allen said that to was OK. I know I got the fuel control in right and it is working free. Let the in tank pump work for a couple of minutes and check flow back at the tank and had some. Tried to start and no go so we tried some ether and no go. Checked air flow and air cleaner is breathing. I know I preach that cracking the injectors is not needed on the multi fuel but I cracked all injectors and had some fuel at all of them. Allen and I talked about the last Ambac rebuilt Head I have been saving for my Deuce if I or my son needs it. Allen said no keep it. So we are sticking with the old head and crossed fingers that it is able to produce the required pressure to pop the injectors. We had plenty of flow/ pressure at the bleed screw so I believe the secondary fuel filter over pressure bypass is closed and holding. To remove the IP head we used Gimpyrob's quick method of checking the # two exhaust valve was open looking through the engine oil fill hole. The rocker had some lash before we rotated the engine over to line up the Head mark for removal. After the Head mark was on the valve was open leading us to believe that all the valve train is set correct and working. We will double check that when we remove the valve covers next time we work on it or Allen does it.

Floridianson · Mar 27, 2019

This was posted by Rustystud along with some tm's in the thread we derailed.

OK, first off the "overflow valve" does not keep pressure at 60 PSI . That is the job of the "fuel pressure relief valve" .
Second, the hole is there for "air" accumulation to escape and for "cooling" of the pump head. Not for the fuel to flow with just the in-tank pump running.
Now according to TM 9-2815-210-34 and TM 9-2815-210-35, they say the "overflow" valve can cause low fuel pressures in the hydraulic head.
I've posted the pertinent information here.

Now another thing to check for poor fuel pressure is of course the "pressure relief valve" in the fuel filter housing. If it is stuck it too can cause the engine to not run.
Also the "plunger" in the pump can be worn out. The plunger "sleeve" can be worn and or sticking too.
Another thing to consider is the whole Hydraulic Head is crap. All this and more can cause a "no run" condition.

Floridianson · Mar 27, 2019

Going from the bottom line and working up, plunger or head bad. Yep but have no real way or easy way without spinning up the IP to check correct pressures. We have our fingers crossed.

Secondary fuel block over pressure valve. Yep it would for sure steal the pressure / flow away from the IP Head if it was stuck open. Allen and I feel the it is working correct and closed.

Overflow valve in IP Head. Yep if it was stuck open we would see a drop in pressure just like you said in post 8792 Deuce thread. Maybe not so much as the fuel filter over pressure valve but yep it would be a big problem when running. We would not see close to our 30/60 minimum required for Idle and high idle.

Hole in overflow valve for cooling / air displacement priming of the system. We discussed this along time ago and glad you now agree it cools and primes up the system by displacing what air might be trapped with fuel. The last thing that little hole/ orifice will do is when the in tank pump is running it returns some fuel to the tank. You can hear it at the fuel tank when the in tank is running. Greg you even tried to tell me when you first joined SS that we could not test in tank fuel pressure at the bleed screws. That's where I do it.

Fuel pressure valve in the booster pump. Yes some pumps need a pressure valve to create a head pressure to be able to build pressure then release it when the pressure reaches the valve specs. I believe after that to hold that pressure we would need restriction. It can be piping hose or in this case fuel filters and over flow valve to apply some restriction. To me if there were no restrictions after the booster pump ( open line) the pressure would drop off to a very small amount but we would have what ever the pump could flow. By saying the Head bypass valve does not make the pressure is correct but it supplies the restriction needed to keep what the booster pump makes farther down the line. I never said it made the pressure I said it help hold pressure. Should have said helps maintain a constant pressure but same thing. It does it by restriction of the fuel pressure put out from the boost pump. We see this drop in booster pump pressure when the fuel filter bypass is open or over flow valve is stuck open. Just like the TM's state if loss of pressure check fuel filter over pressure valve or Head over flow valve. It also could be a leak in the system but we would see that.
Now it would be interesting to see if the booster pump pressure changes when we bypass the FDC. As far as with the in tank just running and we have maybe seven pounds of pressure at the filters bleed screw there might be a small loss at the Head. I would think it would be a small loss because of the orifice in the over flow valve but I feel that would be enough pressure to fill the fuel control /head area with fuel to at least start. Then the booster would come in with the 30psi at idle once it started and the Head overflow would maintain it.
You thoughts are welcome there Greg.

FloridaAKM · Mar 27, 2019

Thanks for the comprehensive write up James, I never thought it would be so difficult to get a multi fueled diesel engine running. The '87 has been a stellar example of what to expect, the '85, not so much. We will get it running eventually or?

Floridianson · Mar 27, 2019

Greg and I derailed a thread when discussing IP problems. So I did this in response to his last post and off the good meds with clear thoughts. As for you get back to work Allen and yes we will get it running.

FloridaAKM · Mar 27, 2019

My boss went to Spartanburg for a few days to a big pow wow, I can read Steel Soldiers Site with no problems now.

rustystud · Mar 28, 2019

Floridianson said:
Greg you even tried to tell me when you first joined SS that we could not test in tank fuel pressure at the bleed screws. That's where I do it.

I don't recall ever saying that. Maybe you could post that here.

So this engine has never run for you since you got it, correct ? I thought you said it ran at idle Floridianson but nothing more. Sounds like you have good fuel flow so since this engine has never run for you, I would remove that Hydraulic Head and check the "plunger" and "sleeve" for wear. At this point it seems that is the only thing holding you back. Unless the Hydraulic Head was installed incorrectly. Even if the "Boost Pump" was bad it should still at least start.
Before I removed the Hydraulic Head again. I would remove an "injector" and with the fuel line attached try and start the engine. Then you could actually see if the Injection Pump is working at all. Maybe you have a broken cam. I had a pump do that. Actually two pumps I bought had broken cams . Have you verified the actual movement of the "plunger" ? If so then we're back to testing the whole pump with the injector removed. That is what I would do next.

FloridaAKM · Mar 28, 2019

Greg, Alan here. The truck was a non-runner from the auction & I tow barred it home. The guy @ the lot had not even attempted to get it to start, which saved him a lot of work. He usually get things running before auction as to sell for more $$$. Investigating the truck, we made sure the plunger was moving up & down before taking the HH off the pump. It was pumping diesel & moving up & down as it should. Upon taking the HH off & discovering the clip & button were off & the spring was broken in half, we figured that was the culprit. After replacing the button, spring & retaining clip (Thanks Gimpy); the truck still would not start. I do believe that pulling an injector this weekend will be the next thing I do to see if diesel is actually being expelled from them; then & making sure all the valves are opening, closing & adjusted to spec. Thanks for the ideas.

Floridianson · Mar 28, 2019

Sounds like an idea and a plan. Allen we don't have to pull and injector we can just use one of your extra or one of mine. That way if your injector is bad / gummed up at least we know my new on is good to go. So just pull a line might be the quickest way to test for pop pressure. Yes Head is installed correct and plunger collar was fitting tight enough. Had plunger movement so cam should be turning. Had some fuel coming out if each injector when cranking so quill shaft turning. Funny our high pressure booster lets fuel pass buy with the in tank running engine off. That allows the system circulation all the way back to the fuel tank. Problem here is when we pulled the Head we assumed that was the only problem and it could be bigger than just the Head.
Allen and I were joking that the way some of these trucks were worked on before that maybe they left out a half of pistons.

FloridaAKM · Mar 28, 2019

I bought 6 injectors from a fellow member here some time ago & now may need them. They are each new in a sealed plastic container, but are just the tips & are 2 hole injectors. The laser etchings on them are: ADB35S124-7 & no other markings; they are supposed to be for the 465-LDT engine injectors according to the guy I bought them from. Looks like some more research is in my near future.

After a near major accident leaving work today, needed to blow off some steam, so I put the tailgate back on the truck that came stored in the bed. It was bent @ some time by some well meaning Air Force guys trying to push the truck with something big, but I managed to get it installed & latched. Little by little, the truck is getting closer to being back on the road.

rustystud · Mar 28, 2019

FloridaAKM said:
Greg, Alan here. The truck was a non-runner from the auction & I tow barred it home. The guy @ the lot had not even attempted to get it to start, which saved him a lot of work. He usually get things running before auction as to sell for more $$$. Investigating the truck, we made sure the plunger was moving up & down before taking the HH off the pump. It was pumping diesel & moving up & down as it should. Upon taking the HH off & discovering the clip & button were off & the spring was broken in half, we figured that was the culprit. After replacing the button, spring & retaining clip (Thanks Gimpy); the truck still would not start. I do believe that pulling an injector this weekend will be the next thing I do to see if diesel is actually being expelled from them; then & making sure all the valves are opening, closing & adjusted to spec. Thanks for the ideas.

Well Alan I hope you find and then post what the problem is. With so many unknowns about this engine who knows what is wrong ! Who knows, maybe James joking about the pistons is not far off the mark ! I had an IHC 392 engine in a LoadStar come into the shop years ago that had real low power. After checking compression and finding none in bores 1 and 2 , I dropped the oil pan. Inside I could see the pistons jammed into their bores with the connecting rods wrapped around the crankshaft ! The wrist pins had snapped off and lucky for the operator the rods wrapped around the crank keeping oil pressure up. Of course the block was severely damaged along with the crankshaft and of course the pistons and rods. We just replaced the engine.
No need to check further.
I hope nothing like this is wrong with your engine though ! Fingers crossed .

FloridaAKM · Apr 7, 2019

Well, James dropped by & we hooked up a new injector to the #3 line & cranked the truck over to see if any fuel was getting to & thru the injector. Nothing came out of the injector while cranking, so we removed the injector from the line & fuel would come out, but there was not enough pressure to pop the injector apparently. Time for a new hydraulic head I guess. Anybody have a new hydraulic head that they want to sell or any ideas of what to do with this head?

rustystud · Apr 7, 2019

FloridaAKM said:
Well, James dropped by & we hooked up a new injector to the #3 line & cranked the truck over to see if any fuel was getting to & thru the injector. Nothing came out of the injector while cranking, so we removed the injector from the line & fuel would come out, but there was not enough pressure to pop the injector apparently. Time for a new hydraulic head I guess. Anybody have a new hydraulic head that they want to sell or any ideas of what to do with this head?

Before you trash the Hydraulic Head I would tear it down completely. Clean it thoroughly, especially the pressure valve. Then see if it works. On several that I rebuilt they had severe "gummy deposits" on the pressure valves and in the small passages. Of course if the plunger is worn-out then you have to replace the Hydraulic Head.

Floridianson · Apr 8, 2019

Yep that is what I told Allen we should do yesterday before he buys another head. At least Allen will be a pro at replacing the Head after we are done.

Welder1 · Apr 8, 2019

rustystud said:
Before you trash the Hydraulic Head I would tear it down completely. Clean it thoroughly, especially the pressure valve. Then see if it works. On several that I rebuilt they had severe "gummy deposits" on the pressure valves and in the small passages. Of course if the plunger is worn-out then you have to replace the Hydraulic Head.

Rusty,

A friend of mine owns the local injection shop here. I was there one day and his dad who has now passed use to rebuild the multifuel injection pumps. He still had a rebuilt head in stock that I bought. It was rebuilt by a company in Louisiana called Mylex. I called them and they said they can refurbish a worn head. I have not tried them yet but they may be an option as all the new heads are gone.

Eddie Cannon

Floridianson · Apr 8, 2019

rustystud said:
Before you trash the Hydraulic Head I would tear it down completely. Clean it thoroughly, especially the pressure valve. Then see if it works. On several that I rebuilt they had severe "gummy deposits" on the pressure valves and in the small passages. Of course if the plunger is worn-out then you have to replace the Hydraulic Head.

Yep taking them apart cleaning them up on the work bench can be a good thing. Now if you could spin them up at home and test them would be a cool thing. Doing the math for the correct rpm and having a pressure delivery system that would put out 60 psi to the IP now your talking. Then a way to test all injector line ports for correct pressure and setting the FDC servo valve. I never asked my injection shop before he died if he could spin up a Deuce IP. I know he was doing my Cummins PT's. Been a long time since I have done anything with the Deuces and when you have more than one series of MV's it's hard to stay up on them all without hands on.

FloridaAKM · Apr 8, 2019

I am not going to junk the hydraulic head as that would be stupid. A little more investigating & cleaning is in order before I send it off for repair or come with a better solution. I get a little frustrated with this truck as the first Deuce was a plug & play, but this one is a plug & plug away @ fixing stuff that the Air Force ignored till they DRMO'ed it. One thing for sure is that I definitely will have become a better mechanic once it is running & operating like the '87 Deuce. Here is a picture of it the day I towed it home.

Here are both trucks, the smoke colored dome on the '85 Deuce is just sitting there, it is not part of the truck or installed.

Floridianson · Apr 8, 2019

We will get it figure Allen if it calls for sending out your Head or what ever. Yea wish now I would have kept all the IP's I had but I just parted them out and gave away parts so others could fix there problems.

FloridaAKM · Apr 8, 2019

You helped a bunch of guys get their trucks running, so all the parts you gave away went to good homes. People remember that more than who they bought what parts from. Thanks for your help so far.

frank8003 · Apr 8, 2019

protect your head
what it is we always trying to protect
I have the solutions

No start after button replacement.

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