Community Feedback: Aftermarket CIM for 805b/806b

We are looking into of whether or not we should embark in developing a simplified CIM for the 805b and 806b units which would provide full Generator functionally and remote start option.

As manufacturer of Electronics primarily dedicated to Defense Products our primary obstacle is the associated manufacturing cost of such products. We would like to give you an example here of what we are up against.
Let’s say we need to source a Dual Op-Amp. The Semiconductor Manufacturers usually give us three options:

1. Consumer Grade 0̊ to +50̊C cost: about $ 1.00/pcs (China $ 0.10/pcs)
2. Automotive / Industrial Grade -40̊C to +80̊C cost: about $ 10.00/pcs
3. Military Grade (MIL-STD) -55̊C to +125̊C cost: about $ 100.00/pcs

( The temperature indicates the permissible ambient temperature)

So, in the end, if a Consumer Product is sold for $ 50.00 to a Consumer, then the same Product in Industrial / Automotive Grade would cost the consumer around $ 500.00 and the Military Version would be around $ 5,000.00 - this may help to understand our obstacles.I do not want to get into the issue of radiation hardening or EMC testing up to 70 Ghz for some Military Equipment.

Now, for our after-market CIM, we would have to be in the Automotive / Industrial Grade otherwise you will not be able to operate the Generator below 32̊F.
This unit would completely eliminate the current PC104 based Winsystems PC’s and the CIM - all I/O’s i.e. Voltage Regulator, Governor Control, Fuel pumps, Sensors, start relay etc. would have to be rewired to our CIM which would only consist of a self contained system mounted in the Front Panel using the same mounting holes of the current CIM with app. the same dimensions.

It would be basically a drop in replacement.
With this in mind we would like to receive the following/input feedback from your community:

The indication of Voltage Output, Frequency, Fuel Level, Status etc should be indicated by:

1. 7" or 10" Full Color High Resolution LCD with Touch Screen (most expensive solution)
2. With Analog Gauges and LED Lights and Push Buttons (medium cost solution)
3. LED BAR-GRAPHS and LED Indicators and Push Buttons (most cost effective)

The CIM should have:

1. USB + WiFi Connectivity (most expensive solution)
2. RS485 or CAN Communication (medium cost solution)
3. No Communication at all (most cost effective)

We are looking forward to your comments and idea’s you may have yourself.
Sincerely

Peter

You may have already done this, but I would start by contacting a global retailer such as Green Mountain Generators to gauge demand for your product and see if they could retail the boards to their customer base.

NDT said:

You may have already done this, but I would start by contacting a global retailer such as Green Mountain Generators to gauge demand for your product and see if they could retail the boards to their customer base.

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Green Mountain is the only Authorized Dealer for our products (besides buying from us direct) and yes we discussed this and this is the reason for this post but we would like to get community feedback prior to starting this project.

I say option 2 and option 3. Thanks for supporting these units.

Thank you, we value your opinion.

Shouldn't this be in the vendor's section?

gimpyrobb said:

Shouldn't this be in the vendor's section?

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We are not selling here anything at this point. We are trying to receive community feedback on the issue of developing a substitute CIM because of the general unavailability of new CIM units which we do not manufacture nor sell. Which means in plain English if your CIM or motherboard is toast then you can’t fix your Generator. All LCD’s have a very limited life expectancy, especially when operated outdoors with an expanded temperature and UV exposure.

I agree with NDT: options 2 & 3.

2) With Analog Gauges and LED Lights and Push Buttons (medium cost solution)
3) No Communication at all (most cost effective)

Zed254 said:

I agree with NDT: options 2 & 3.

2) With Analog Gauges and LED Lights and Push Buttons (medium cost solution)
3) No Communication at all (most cost effective)

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I agree. Most folks are looking to replace a part that is not only hard to get, but costly. Adding even more to the cost, just seems like counter productive.

2) With Analog Gauges and LED Lights and Push Buttons (medium cost solution)
3) No Communication at all (most cost effective )

i have a fully operational mep 806b that we can use as a trial /error i will be willing to purchase the parts and follow proceidures, if we could all work together we could find a solution ,

Thank you for your feedback.
We have been looking further into this project and have come to the following preliminary decision:

We will offer two different versions:

Version 1: With OELD Display with Alpha Numerical Display (no graphics) which is UV resistant and operates from -40C to +80C and no Communications
Version 2: With Analog Gauges and Meters, no Communications

Both units will be a direct replacement and will take over both units CIM and A5 - All connections currently on A5 (i.e. J20, J17, J23, J25 etc) are going to connect directly to our System

The two primary obstacles are the consist availability and pricing of the analog meters and gauges and for Version 1 would be to find a OLED large enough in resolution

The estimated sales price for either of the Versions will be around US$ 800 to US$ 900

This is pretty much the lowest we can go and provide a reliable, high quality, USA made System
Sincerely

Peter

If you can get a deliverable product at that price, I believe it will be quite successful, but as a manufacturer myself... for what it is, and the captive nature of the product, I do believe your target price point could be higher, without being considered outrageous.

Update:

We are still looking into the OLED Displays - We will keep you posted

Update:

We have worked our way through he OLED Issue and are ready to proceed.

However, the new Government Auctioneer has sold since the beginning of last year January/February 2018:

128pcs MEP 805B

141pcs MEP 806B

and currently has active listings for:

4pcs MEP 805B
3pcs MEP 806B

We will proceed if we can get at least 10 pre paid orders with a lead time of 4 to 5 month. Otherwise this project is not feasible for us.
Thank you for your understanding and cooperation in this matter.
Sincerely Peter

Update:

We also have checked into the availability of Analog Gauges for Fuel Level, Frequency, Percent Load, Battery Charging, Voltage, Cooling Temperature and Oil Pressure.
Unfortunately, the gauges which are cots and of good quality are to expensive to meet our target retail price. The lower cost units, nos of NSN etc are not easily available or only available in insufficient numbers.
On top of this, most gauges (99,9%) which are cots are now made offshore, primarily China.

Even though this is technically a easy conversion to Analog Gauges, the cost are unfortunately prohibitive.

Final Question:
What is your experience on your 805B/806B with the Voltage Regulator and Engine MPU/RPM (Governor) Control Unit?

For simplification purposes, we have intended to interface our CIM Replacement with those two units. We would not offer the Paralleling Option and the Synchronizer Controller would become obsolete or not used.

This would save on cost when replacing the CIM, but would not resolve the issue of obtaining/cost the NSN replacement parts for those two units

Thanks

Peter,

Over the period of 8-9 years when I worked as a FMT, (Field Maintenance Technician) for the US Army, I got to know this series gen set well. I would guess I found maybe 25 Volt Regs and many more Gov's bad. I did not then, or now, think that these components had a high level of failure. Considering the numbers of gen sets, and the hours that they ran, I thought that it was more then acceptable. In my experience, most of these items were changed because that was the Army way of doing things. No output voltage? No AC output control? Unstable VAC? Change the volt reg. Gen set wont run to speed? Gen set will not start? Gen set will not allow you to adjust the hertz? Change the Gov. Throw parts at it until it works. There are many reasons that the Army had problems fixing these set. And its beyond the scope of your question anyway. If you want to discus the weaknesses of the 805 and 806 gen sets, I would be happy to do so. But in answer to you question, I don't think we had a big problem with these two components.

Other things like the CIM, Backplane, MPU and I&O Module/Card were a much bigger problem. I have to admit, I got called to check/repair all the problems that the Army mechanics could not troubleshoot or fix. So I got to see the "worst" of the problems.

In the 80's I was involved with SDC, (Sample Data Collection) for IHAWK. and later, when I was involved with PATRIOT, kept my own SDC on power generation in the 32nd ADA Command here in Germany and down range. Incredibly interesting data. And that's what you need. The MTBF, (Mean Time Between Failures) for the 805 and 806 gen sets. The CECOM has it, why cant you ask for it in a FOI request?

Guy

Guy,

thank you. Could you please briefly summarize the problems / causes with the Backplane, MPU and I/O Module?
As to the CIM, this is a PC104 based system.....
Thank You

peapvp said:

Guy,

thank you. Could you please briefly summarize the problems / causes with the Backplane, MPU and I/O Module?
As to the CIM, this is a PC104 based system.....
Thank You

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The reliability of the Backplane was never high in the beginning. And I believe there was at least 2-3 revisions to the backplane. One of its great weaknesses was that that you simply can not test it. Part of that mentality was the "Pluck and Chuck" repair system. Every troubleshooting guide gets to the Backplane, and the answer to the 1 million dollar question is, CHANGE IT and see if it works. At $1,788.00 bucks a pop. The Backplane was a recoverable item. It HAD to get sent back to be inspected/repaired, so you had to have one to get one. Anyone in the Army longer then a few years knew how to get by that requirement. At one point, the Item Manager personally decided what parts request in the world got satisfied first. Often we got one in, installed it, and it was no good. QA/QC sucked.
But no real test procedures. That's what angered most folks. And changing it was not fun. You have never lived until you have done it in a CBR suit, in 115 degrees.

The I&O was the same way, if not worse. Same problems. The reliability was bad. QA/QC was bad. If you need to get 2-3 to get the set to run, something is wrong. And there was still no way to test it other then replace it at $2,266.00 Often it was damaged by people plugging in a Volt Reg, or Elect. Gov component. You get it in right, or forcing it in breaks something. It seemed to vibrate very much, and that may explain the failures somewhat. It seemed to me that simply too many functions passed through this card. Just about every troubleshooting diagram led you to the I&O, and said change it. Sometimes you could see burn traces and cracks under the coating, but mostly, it was so dirty, that was not possible. I can remember one time period, that it was simply impossible to get one. They failed so often, that people started ordering them, (read hording here) even if they didn't need one. Why? You knew you would need one soon.

The MPU. Now that was something very different. Yes, they sometimes went bad. Not all that often, no, not really very often. The problem with the MPU, was Pvt. Schmudlap. Without fail, (and I admit I did it twice also) he was screwing the darned thing in too far and grinding the end off, when the engine turned over. And not once, or twice! Sometimes more often.

And if you don't screw it in far enough, then the Elect. Gov will not work. More Injector pumps, Fuel Cutoff Solenoids, Elect. Governors ordered/changed, and who knows how many fuel systems being taken apart and replaced because of this little puppy being ground off or not being screwed in far enough, you could finance Microsoft for a year. This is NOT a lie. Vibrations, and no Lock Tight, also caused this thing to "fail". And for years, they came without the small electrical connectors. Most folks simply cut them off, and twisted them onto the new MPU. Bad connection, bad response. Since it a magnet, it collected metal filings and dirt/grease and all that. So it stopped working. Schmudlap pulls it out and cleans it. And so the circle starts again. In reality, it was simple to install, simple to test and it caused more havoc then any other part on the set. ANY TQG that turns over, but wont start, should have its MPU pulled out first thing and checked. Or checked at the Gov. terminal board.