SF-97 in PA - Time to take action

First, I really enjoy this site. For the past several months, I have been lurking daily and learning a good bit. I bought a Deuce in an early January auction and picked it up in mid March. I drove it home to Berks County from Chambersburg 110 miles, it runs great. I have run it around my farm, waiting for the SF-97 form to get processed for the past several weeks.

I knew the EUC form would take some time, but I had no idea about the delay in processing SF-97 forms, when I bought my truck.

I am a full time lawyer and a gentleman farmer on the side.

I got on PennDOT' website and looked at the Motor Vehicle Code.

Section 1103.1 (b) provides in essence, that an application for title must be filed with PennDot within 20 days of the date of purchase.

Section 1103.1(d) requires dealers to submit the title paperwork to PennDOT within 20 days of the date of sale. The violation is a summary offense and a $50 fine.

I intend to contact GL tomorrow and indicate that if I do not get my SF-97 form within __ days, I will contact, PennDOT and my legislative reps. and make formal complaints regarding this mattter.

Are there other PA owners waiting on SF-97 forms? Or other purchasers from GL at PA facilities waiting on SF-97 forms? If so, we were to make a joint complaint to PennDOT, etc. and in numbers we would likely produce more heat on GL than any of us could individually.

A separate option is to sue GL for breach of contract. They sell a vehicle, they need to comply with state law, including providing a title. I did not see any language on the GL website in addressing the SF-97 process, which would serve as a waiver of legal right for them to provide me with the paperwork to allow me to submit an application for title in accordance with the above referenced provisions.

I have been a few years back in private practice after 9 years working as a litigation attorney for a state agency (DEP). I will never cease to be disgusted regarding the bureacratic BS that government and quasi-government agencies try to put people through. I have had some fun setting those kinds of folks straight.

Welcome Farmer. These actions will either be good or bad for all of us. I wish you, and our future with surplus, the best.

oh yeah!...

typical lawyer!
did you consider the fact that GL is not required to auction this stuff,and if people make it more economical to just scrap these things,they will.

Ill Temper

With that attitude and screen name, I am sure you must need a good lawyer to get your dumb ass out of trouble from time to time.

I understand that GL has a contract to aution these items for the government. DRMO sets the permitted use of the items that are sold. I am sure that the government wants to get as much for their surplus as they can, so selling things whole rather than scrap will net them more money. GL has nothing to do with setting the demil codes.

There is no reason that GL can not take care of the SF-97 before they sell trucks, at least then buyer at auction can get their EUC, pick up the vehicle and apply for their title without further delay from GL. This is a problem of GL's creation. It is easy to solve going forward, get the SF-97s ready prior to listing future sales. The problem is for the good folks who have already waited waiting much longer than I am willing to wait without shaking things up

I offered my comments as an aid to other users in a similar situation as me. Just trying to help my fellow MV owners.

And the time it takes to get the SF97s seem to be getting longer and longer. It's been 7 weeks since I faxed in for 18 of them. As of date they haven't grabbed their money. It is usually 3 weeks following them taking the money that I get them. Other words it's going to be at least 10 weeks for this batch.

Word on their end is that they are being processed. I've heard that before.

first off I fully admit that I'm new to this stuff.
I'm not sure how my feelings about lawyer's thinking only of litigation and not the overall consequences has anything to do with my "dumb butt" ,but there are a few threads,here and elsewhere,that state exactly the concerns I just did. and if you haven't noticed, scrap price for a deuce is around $1,500+, now add the cost of a "lawsuit" and you just made it more profitable to scrap.
I'm not saying it's great they take so long, just that your option may not be the best for all involved,though I could be wrong.
regards...Jon

The thing is,unless they pay fire grinders and people to cut the trucks up they still are required to have a title in most states.A lot of state now with scrap prices so high require a title on ANY and ALL vehicles reguardless of scrap or drivable.You can't just tow a junker out of your field to the scrap yard anymore.You gotta sign over the title to the yard before they pay ya.

trucks

The problem is for the good folks who have already waited waiting much longer than I am willing to wait without shaking things up

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Well just buy your truck from a dealer or a private sale. If you were a lawyer I wouldn't think you would need to save a few bucks buying from A SURPLUS AUCTION. It used to be no problem getting the SF97 but then buyer like you started complaining about every detail and this is what we have to deal with now.
G/L will have no problem moving trucks out of PA and selling elsewhere. Wayne

illtemper said:

typical lawyer!
did you consider the fact that GL is not required to auction this stuff,and if people make it more economical to just scrap these things,they will.

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What's up with this crappy attitude. I for one am tired you guys telling the rest of us to roll over and take it. NO other company in America could get away with this why should we let GL. They can do the job right they just don't care too. If no one protest their actions on this they will find some other way to shaft us next.

You go lawyer. I'm a blue collar man but I too have did the same thing you are trying to do here. Oh yea, GL is required to auction the stuff, it's their freaking job.

Joe Trapp

PA Code requires that Vehicle Dealers and Auction Houses have licenses.
CIT: PA Board of Vehicles Act, Act of December 22, 1983 (P.L. 306, No. 84) as amended 63 P.S. §§ 818.1 et seq.

PA Code requires that Vehicle Dealers and Auction Houses distribute titles on any vehicle (truck, car, trailer - scrap or not) within 20 days or there is a $50 fine per instance.
CIT: PA Vehicle Code, Title 75, Part II, Chapter 11, Subchapter A, § 1103.1.(d) et.al.


I just want the process fixed. Have the SF97 (or better yet PA Titles) issued by GL employees in PA, not AZ. I don't want them issued BEFORE I pickup the trailer or truck/car because the number isn't necessarily correct. I want to receive it in the mail within 20 days (like the law says). PennDOT has an e-title system, so it's easy fro GL to transmit the info to PennDOT in Harrisburg (across the river).

If GL was a Messenger Service, they could issue PA Tags (temp & perm) and Registration on the spot also.

Re: trucks

papercu said:

The problem is for the good folks who have already waited waiting much longer than I am willing to wait without shaking things up

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Well just buy your truck from a dealer or a private sale. If you were a lawyer I wouldn't think you would need to save a few bucks buying from A SURPLUS AUCTION. It used to be no problem getting the SF97 but then buyer like you started complaining about every detail and this is what we have to deal with now.
G/L will have no problem moving trucks out of PA and selling elsewhere. Wayne

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First thing, everyone needs to lay off the personal attacks and sniping, we're trying to have a civil conversation here. I'm happy that PaFarmer is here and willing to help with our collective pain .

But like anybody else you need to comply with the law. Other surplus auctions like Mannheim, Asset Auctions, etc. and state sponsored auctions like PA DGS, NY OGS, etc. all provide a clear title at time of sale in PA, NY, NJ. If it's scrap, you get a scrap title.

They're going to have to move the equipment real far to get it out of a state that has similar, and rather reasonable laws.

I would rather not have them ready ahead of time because GL doesn't necessarily copy the correct information off the vehicle/trailer and put it on the auction listing. I would rather verify it with GL at the time of pickup.

Speaking as a business consultant with 17+ years of experience, you need to use the KISS principle.

SIMPLE SOLUTION - HAVE GL IN MECHANICSBURG ISSUE THE SF97's FOR VEHICLES/TRAILERS SOLD IN PA WITHIN 20 DAYS OF THE BILL OF SALE AND SENT VIA USPS TO BUYER. IF MECHANICSBURG IS TOO BUSY, HAVE GL IN TOBYHANNA ISSUE THEM.

End of story, problem solved.

Actually alot of places I have been scrap cars without titles. In fact, I have never turned in a title on any vehicle I have junked. As for the SF-97 issue, it should be a simple fix as the paperwork is simple. I don't know what the issue is with GL other than they don't want to pay to have personnel do the work hence the long delays. I know they have hired more people but have a huge backlog from when they only had one SF-97 person. Will be interesting in a few months if they speed up. (doubt it)

My concern would be they would say, "OK, we're sorry. Just bring the trucks back for a refund." Personally, I'd rather have the truck(s) and wait a bit for the SF-97(s). Just my $.02. I agree that it is rediculous that it takes so long, especially since the old DRMO used to take about two weeks to get SF-97s and the info was almost always correct.

It's been said before. GL has passed the buck to the buyer to obtain the correct information on the vehicles. This needs to be completed by the GL staff and the correct SF97 completed before the trucks are auctioned. What exasperates this even more is the fact that we cannot apply for the SF97 until the EUC clears. Thats can add months to the wait. The solution is painfully simple. Have paperwork in hand before selling truck.

Blythewoodjoe said:

illtemper said:

typical lawyer!
did you consider the fact that GL is not required to auction this stuff,and if people make it more economical to just scrap these things,they will.

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What's up with this crappy attitude. I for one am tired you guys telling the rest of us to roll over and take it. NO other company in America could get away with this why should we let GL. They can do the job right they just don't care too. If no one protest their actions on this they will find some other way to shaft us next.

You go lawyer. I'm a blue collar man but I too have did the same thing you are trying to do here. Oh yea, GL is required to auction the stuff, it's their freaking job.

Joe Trapp

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agreed on the attitude,was trying to be brief,not necessarily rude,my apologies.

I was not aware that some states require a title to scrap,around here they drive em in to the scrap yard.
as far as other companies doing stuff like this...have you done business anywhere lately? most places take forever and do crappy work at that,and to some extent,that's due to lawsuits. did you know a huge percentage of a doctor's fees go to insurance,largely because of frivolous lawsuits."the customer is always right",is just an old saying now.
all I'm saying is that sometimes instead of legal action its better to vote with your dollar's,ie; if you don't like how they operate,don't buy from them. when their stuff quits selling they'll change accordingly.
didn't mean to start an argument, just have another point of view.
and as for "blue collar", I'm a long haul truckdriver,workin 12hrs to 16hrs a day,6 days a week, making less than most people here,it don't get much more blue....Jon

papercu,
Curious as to why would you ASSUME that just because someone is an attorney, they like to spend more money on something than they need to. He probably has a certain amount of fun money just like most of the others of us on here and wants to stretch it as far as possible. He may have MORE fun money than many of us, but that doesn't mean he wants to spend it frivolously.
BC

FreightTrain and Joe T well said. For all the spineless, wishy-washy, jellyfish and bleeding hearts, get a life. What GL is doing is wrong. I’m sure all have noticed that in the states that do require the SF-97 at delivery they are scraping all MV’s. Oh woe is us; they’re going to crush everything, what rot. I guess all the vehicle prices going up means nothing, yeah much better to scrap. What is being asked is nothing out of the ordinary, every auto dealer in the US complies with the very same laws. Why should GL be any different? They are making a profit, and it is a business. Wake up people.

Floyd

hndrsonj said:

Actually alot of places I have been scrap cars without titles. In fact, I have never turned in a title on any vehicle I have junked. As for the SF-97 issue, it should be a simple fix as the paperwork is simple. I don't know what the issue is with GL other than they don't want to pay to have personnel do the work hence the long delays. I know they have hired more people but have a huge backlog from when they only had one SF-97 person. Will be interesting in a few months if they speed up. (doubt it)

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Most states that require a title also require scrapers to turn in the title also. Most likely, you just got by or your state does may be an exception. I do know that a lot of scrappers or junk yards ignore the law in this respect. We recently had a problem in Detroit with some towing companies going around and grabbing cars they thought were abandoned and hauling them to the scrapper for money. They were not following the proper procedure but towing companies are exempt from having to give titles in certain circumstances. They were exploiting this and there was a public outcry to make the law more restrictive in this respect. My point is, most of the time if they are not taking titles for scrap cars they are violating the law. The only way GL can bypass this is if they required the vehicles to be cut of or crushed on site like aircraft and armor sales. As stated before this is not really up to GL to make this decision. It is up to DRMO to change the demil code. I don't really think GL can influence DRMO to get everything classified as scrap to be destroyed on site. Even if they made the sale a scrap sale if the vehicle is still clearly a vehicle and not a pile of metal then a scrap title has to be provided. I just want my damn titles.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't GL provide titles to vehicles sold in Florida due to Florida DMV law?

I know for an absolute fact that GL is violating DMV law in Virginia and that the VA DMV investigations division is looking into the matter as I type here. They contacted me for an interview on a purchase I made. For one, they are collecting a 5% sales tax when the motor vehicle tax is only 3%. They are also required to provide a title and they should be registered with the VA DMV due to the number of vehicles they sell.

If GL is in violation in PA and VA, wouldn't it stand to reason that they are in violation elsewhere?

Surely we want MV's to be available for sale without restriction in all available States, but allowing GL to violate the laws in a State is not acceptable no matter the outcome.

HeadWizard said:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't GL provide titles to vehicles sold in Florida due to Florida DMV law?

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Correct