CDL

Cdl

I guess I shouldn't complain about Illinois and there laws so much. You can go down to the DMV take a test, drive around in a truck with a tester for about a half hour and your done. The whole thing is done in about an hour. Log books here also must be different. If you drive in the state (intrastate) they don't even ask for a log book. If you are from out of state (interstate) then they are going to ask for a log book, I just assumed that since the feds had there hand in the CDL that most of the state laws were the same. I don't travel out of state with any of my trucks so I really don't have any problems. But now that I have heard the stories from the rest of you about all the hassle that is involved with the CDL I understand why it is a big deal. I wouldn't want to go through all that either. We have it pretty easy here in Illinois compared to the rest of you, I guess I should consider myself lucky instead of complaining about Illinois traffic laws.

Pretty much what I was saying Ryan. When you get a CDL then it opens a can of worms with regulations a private individual does not have to comply with. If I do not have a CDL it in effect says that I am not trying to do anything in a commerical capacity. If you have one then you have to prove that this trip was not a commercial trip. If I am not doing anything commercial then I will not get a CDL.

If you drive within a 100 air mile radius from where you started your truck you don't have to fill out a log book, but you do have to document your on-duty hours. I think the cap is 12 .

The problem with CDL laws is there's too many of them. The FEDERAL requirements say that all states requirements will be this, AT MINIMUM. States can be more restrictive.

Class A any combination vehicle (truck and trailer) with a combined GVWR over 26000 and a trailer GVWR over 10,000.
Class B any vehicle or combination vehicle with a GVWR over 26000 but the trailer GVWR remains under 10000.

No reference to air brakes, lengths, number of axles, any of that. Just weight, and combination or straight truck.
GVWR means the weight rating, not what the vehicle is registered for.

Commercial drivers licenses are for driving commercial vehicles, which are defined by their weight, not their use. Even for personal use you need a CDL for vehicles over 26000 GVW.

Individual states can be as restrictive as they wish. you need to look into state laws for the answers to that. Many states require air brake endorsements, staged weight licensing, size licensing, etc. The FEDERAL code however covers you, because ALL states must honor the privledges granted by your license in your home state. If you're license is good to drive it in your home state, you can drive it anywhere in the US without any additonal licensing.

Federal logging and hours of service eligibility requirements do not apply to vehicles that are not engaged in commercial use. That means that as soon as you take a hundred bucks to stiff hitch somebody else's truck from a few towns away, just one time, you need numbers, insurance, logs (or exceptable exemptions), time and fuel records kept for months, the whole nine yards.

If you reach the weight threshold you need a class A or B license. IF there is a state 'exemption' you should certain and be prepared to prove it (i.e. the army is exempt).

You need a class A or B CDL license if you operate for hire/profit/placards/15+pass. JimK

I have stated this before and I will state it again. The police or DOT will issue any ticket they think they can issue.
It will be you and your attorney that will fight it out with the judge in court.
If you do not have the correct drivers licence or the vehicle licenced correctly you will be in the need of a good attorney.
The important item that is hard to beat is "are you or your vehicle in commerce"?
There is only one answer and you will not like it.

if the police have issued tickets there is a good chance there was an accident. Even if you're not at fault being outside the law is often a reason others use to shift blame.

Breakdown triangles, fire extinguisher, trailer break away system, conspicutivity tape are not required for non- commercial usage.

Commercial hours of service are:

11 hours max. driving time (after a year of legal action the Teamsters have won their court case to change this back to the old 10 hours driving, however as last week another court granted the carriers another extension).

You cannot drive past 14 hours on-duty, however there is a 2 hour exception for emergencies. Bad weather is not considered an 'emergency' as it can be forecast with enough certainty. This is generally used for breakdowns and blocked roads.

You need 10 hours of continuous off- duty to be able to work again.

There is a 60 hour/7day or 70 hour/8 day limit (depends on type of freight system). That new law had a reset to 0 after some odd time off-duty but that too has been challenged, successfully I believe. JimK.

JIMK, you are posting incorrect information in the above last two posts. The info on drivers licence requirements is incorrect as is the statement about the safety equipment requiements.Trailer break away is required in all cases where brakes are utilized on a trailer. Conspicutivity tape is based on trailer weight and age, as it is a newer law. Fire extinguisher is required on all commercial vehicles over 10001 lbs and needs to be 10abc or better.Triangle reflectore are also required in commercial vehcles over 10001lbs and if you drive thru PA you are also required to carry 8 hours worth of road flares. In NY if you have commercial plates on your truck or in PA you have trucks plates and if you are in commerce, reread my last post. Police and DOT will pull you over and do a check whenever they want. If you blow past a check point, beware they can and will check you out. Oh by the way, do you have a current medical card? The time off needed to start your new work week is 34 hours consecutive.

Low-Tech-Redneck said:

PA requirments for a CDL is a vehicle that

A. Weighs 26,001 pounds or more
B. Tows a trailer that weighs in excess of 10,000
C. Carries 15 or more people, excluding the driver
D. Carries placarded cargo

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I also would like to add that if your truck has full air brakes...

A. Weighs 26,001 pounds or more
B. Tows a trailer that weighs in excess of 10,000
C. Carries 15 or more people, excluding the driver
D. Carries placarded cargo
E. Air Brakes

as all of the five ton M939's do have full on Air Brakes........

You need a CDL if you meet any of these requirements.

C'dub

Air brakes don't make a vehicle into a CMV, only the weight.

Check out what NJ says about it HERE. You can read deeper to find the specifics, but page 1-2 summarizes what license qualifies you to drive what vehicle. Most states are the same. Combination weight is or isn't over the mark, trailer weight is or isn't over the mark, but air or hydraulic isn't included.

BigSkyCountry is in Montana, theirs is the same. A and B are weight only, C is non-CDL stuff that requires CDL level endorsements (passengers, haz-mat) and D is your basic regular old drivers license. The air brakes ONLY come in to play at the A/B level, and they're just like standard transmissions, they're not even an endorsement, just a restriction if you cant use them correctly, and not even considered at the C/D license level.

I've had my CDL for 16 years and drive a truck hauling our machiney for work. If the DOT stops you it seems they have there mind made up before they even get out of the car. I they want to give you a hard time they WILL find a reson to give you a ticket (or worse).
A buddy of mine was going to get his CDL. Before you can take the driving test the DOT has to inspect the truck. The copany he works for has well mantained trucks but he took 3 of them and they failed them all. They then went to the local Sterling truck dealer and borrowed a brand new truck for him to use on the test. They failed the new truck! The problem is most of the CMV officers don't even know what to look for when inspecting a truck. In tennessee they go to school and read books about CV and graduate without ever seeing a real truck.

I have had a CDL ever since they created the requirement. Back then I held a Class A licence for driving dumps and semi tractor trailer combinations. The main reason CDL's cane into being was that some truck drivers held many different state Class A licences so they could pull out a fresh one if they got stopped after having a ticket on one of the other state licences. The database was one of the first Federally linked ones to keep that from happening.

Kenny As far as the Schools are concerned most states have CDL study guides that are good enough to get you to pass if you study them well. The only other thing you need is a CDL holder to sponsor you for the driving test. Mine is a CDL AM with TPX endorsements. The X is for hazardous material and requires an annual test to keep it current. Since I have been deployed so much I think mine is overdue and may be invalid for hazardous now. The good thing is each time I have moved from state to state in the Army the new state just gave me their CDL when I presented my old one.

Don Bagwell wrote
JIMK, you are posting incorrect information in the above last two posts....

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Well, opinions vary.

The NYSDOT Heavy Commercial Inspection Unit is my source. This is the NY State Police Haz- Mat teams and DOT truck inspection crews. We sit around a lot and talk shop so my hobby trucks will be in compliance. I carry some magazines if I every get lucky enough to find the big rig out of service (driving is boring). We all agree that FMCSA regs are for vehicles/drivers used in commerce, though a real good idea for all vehicles. In 2 million miles I have never earned a ticket, however my employer does, and often.

Fire extinguisher is required on all commercial vehicles over 10001 lbs and needs to be 10abc or better.

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There is no requirement for a class A fire rating. Non haz-mat power units can use a 5BC, or 4BC x2.
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.asp?section=393.95

In NY if you have commercial plates on your truck or in PA you have trucks plates and if you are in commerce, reread my last post.

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That statement makes no sense.

from that last post:
The important item that is hard to beat is "are you or your vehicle in commerce"?
There is only one answer and you will not like it.

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This statement sounds like a riddle. Here's an answer:

My Ranger pick-up has NY commercial plates. It is not used for commerce. It has no FMCSA equipment and is 100% legal.
My deuce and half has vintage NY Official plates, it is not a commercial vehicle and not used in commerce,. It has one non-required 10BC fire extinguisher, and some non-required triangles.
The Stalwart has a vintage Official plate, a dubious halon fire suppression system and non-required 10BC, 2BC, 4A80BC fire extinguishers (compared to a deuce its relatively unsafe, I suppose) and some breakdown triangles (required for all British vehicles).

and if you drive thru PA you are also required to carry 8 hours worth of road flares

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My company tractor trailer is a commercial vehicle, used in commerce. It has all FMCSA required equipment. It does not have flares . In 25 years w/CDL I have worked for at least eight different LTL Companies (currently it's a Pa based Co.) and I have never seen a flare [ok, maybe some burnning on the roadside or as freight).

The time off needed to start your new work week is 34 hours consecutive.

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I am -not- allowed to use the 34hr restart. This, and other issues, are being contested in the courts. Others may use it.

Oh by the way, do you have a current medical card?

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Sorry, my medical records are confidential. JimK

The laws are not as important as is the attitude of the LEO pulling you over. The commercial laws can be interpreted many ways by many folk. We can't be perfectly compliant for any situation since the situations seem to be fluid from one LEO to the other. Since I'm in Law Enforcement and work full time in a sea port, we have many commercial enforcment deputies as well as the state DOT officers. I query these folks alot getting their opinions and they change like the weather but the one point most of them agree on is the question "Are You in Commerce?" I wouldn't always be so quick to say to yourself no either.

Here is the PA state law in regards to triangle reflectors.
§ 4530. Portable emergency warning devices.
(a) General rule.--Every truck, other than a truck registered as either a Class I or Class II having a
gross weight of 7,000 pounds or less, truck tractor and bus and any motor vehicle towing a trailer shall
carry at least three portable emergency warning devices of a type specified by regulations promulgated by the department. The regulations shall be consistent with Motor Carrier Safety Regulations, Department of
Transportation, Federal Highway Administration, Bureau of Motor Carrier Safety, section 393.95.
(b) When display required.--Whenever any vehicle of a type referred to in subsection (a) is
disabled or stopped for more than ten minutes upon a roadway or shoulder outside of an urban district, or
upon any divided highway, the driver of the vehicle shall display the portable warning devices of the type
required under subsection (a) in such manner as the department shall direct by regulations.
Please note that all trucks over 7001 lbs MUST carry triangles. Also note that any vehicle towing a trailer must have triangles.

Here is the 1977 version.
§ 167.2. Scope and application.
Except for a truck registered as a Class I or Class II, every truck, truck tractor or bus, and every motor vehicle towing a trailer shall carry three portable emergency warning devices of a type specified in § 167.3 (relating to types of warning devices), which are consistent with 49 CFR 393.95 (relating to emergency equipment on all power units).
Authority
The provisions of this § 167.2 amended under the Vehicle Code, 75 Pa.C.S. § § 4103, 4530 and 6103.
Source
The provisions of this § 167.2 adopted October 21, 1977, effective October 22, 1977, 7 Pa.B. 3131; amended December 28, 1979, effective December 29, 1979, 9 Pa.B. 4275; amended March 18, 1988, effective March 19, 1988, 18 Pa.B. 1205. Immediately preceding text appears at serial page (56734).
Cross References
This section cited in 67 Pa. Code § 167.3 (relating to types of warning devices); and 67 Pa. Code § 167.8 (relating to display).

§ 167.3. Types of warning devices.
One of the following combinations of warning devices shall be carried on those vehicles, specified in § 167.2 (relating to scope and application), and equipped before January 1, 1974:
(1) Three liquid burning emergency flares which satisfy the requirements of SAE Standard J597, ‘‘Liquid Burning Emergency Flares’’, and three fusees and two red flags.
(2) Three electric emergency lanterns which satisfy the requirements of SAE Standard J596, ‘‘Electric Emergency Lanterns’’, and two red flags.
(3) Three red emergency reflectors and two red flags. A red emergency reflector shall conform to the following requirements:

Here is the requirement if you don't carry triangle flares. This is the federal law.
b)(2) Special rules —(i) Fusees and liquid-burning flares. The driver of a commercial motor vehicle equipped with only fusees or liquid-burning flares shall place a lighted fusee or liquid-burning flare at each of the locations specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section. There shall be at least one lighted fusee or liquid-burning flare at each of the prescribed locations, as long as the commercial motor vehicle is stopped. Before the stopped commercial motor vehicle is moved, the driver shall extinguish and remove each fusee or liquid-burning flare.

(b)(2)(ii) Daylight hours. Except as provided in paragraph (b)(2)(iii) of this section, during the period lighted lamps are not required, three bidirectional reflective triangles, or three lighted fusees or liquid-burning flares shall be placed as specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section within a time of 10 minutes. In the event the driver elects to use only fusees or liquid-burning flares in lieu of bidirectional reflective triangles or red flags, the driver must ensure that at least one fusee or liquid-burning flare remains lighted at each of the prescribed locations as long as the commercial motor vehicle is stopped or parked.

This is from 392.22 from the FMCSA. You are required to have enough fusse's for as long as you are stopped, IF you do not have triangles.

But I stand corrected as far as my previous statement of the mandatory 8 hrs in PA.
I also stand corrected as far as the requirements of the 10abc fire ex. I was too lazy to go to my truck and get the FMCSA Book. 10 abc is not precluded and I carry two in my truck and 1 in my trailer.
I will add more data to this post later.

To answer the question, "are you in commerce", here is NY States answer;

(b) Commerce. The term commerce shall mean trade, traffic, commerce or transportation within the jurisdiction of New York State which affects trade, traffic, commerce or transportation within the State. (c) Commercial motor vehicle. For the purposes of this Part, wherever in the provisions of title 49, of the Code of Federal Regulations, herein adopted, reference is made to commercial motor vehicle such reference shall mean any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in commerce to transport property when the vehicle: (1)has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,537 kg (10,001 lb) or more; whichever is greater; or (2) is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.
NYCRR Part 820

820.13 Inspection of motor vehicles in operation. (a) The director of the Motor Carrier Compliance Bureau, any duly authorized employee or agent of the Department and all police officers are authorized to enter upon and perform inspections of motor vehicles in operation and to stop such vehicles for the purposes of inspection, to perform inspections of motor carriers' facilities and records at any time and place where they are found, toascertain whether the rules and regulations of the Commissioner are being obeyed and to ascertain whether such vehicles are maintained, equipped and operated in accordance with the regulations contained in this Part.

More to follow

NY State class d license.
Operator, Class D: Issued to drivers age 18 or over, or to drivers age 17 with Driver Education. Valid for passenger cars and trucks with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,000 lbs. or less. A Class D driver can drive a vehicle that tows another vehicle (for example a trailer) that has a maximum gross weight of 10,000 lbs. or less. A Class D driver can tow a vehicle with a GVWR of more than 10,000 lbs only if the combined weight rating of the two vehicles is 26,000 lbs. or less. See the important information about changes for Class D drivers that result from a law that eliminates the Non-CDL Class A,B & C license.
Commercial, Class A, Class B and Class C (CDL): Drivers age 21 or over can apply for a Class A driver license or any CDL with a hazardous materials endorsement. Drivers age 18 or over can apply for a Class B or Class C driver license. Valid for the same vehicles that a Class E driver can drive plus buses and trucks that have a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 lbs. or more. There are several endorsements and restrictions for different types of vehicles and cargos. See the important information about changes for CDL drivers that result from a law that eliminates the Non-CDL Class C license.

Here is the link from the NYS DMV in regards to historic plate requirement.
http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/forms/mv440.pdf

There is no in between.

More to follow

Here are links to the correct info in regards to New York licensing data,
http://www.nysdmv.com/forms/cdl101.pdf
http://www.nysdmv.com/forms/mv500c.pdf

Here is a link to the correct info in regards to New Yorks requirement to have reflective triangles in a commercial truck over 10000 lbs. It also states a requirement for 10BC fire ex for tank trucks carrying hazmat which is more restrictive than previously posted and different from the federal law.
http://www.nysdmv.com/forms/mv529a.pdf

Below is a copy and paste from http://nysdmv.com/broch/DM-04_07.pdf

You must have a
CDL if you drive any vehicle that:
Has a manufacturer’s gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) or gross
combination weight rating (GCWR) of more than 26,000 lbs. (11,794 kg); or,Is designed or used to carry 15 or more persons, not counting the driver; or,
Regardless of seating capacity, is defined as a bus by Article 19-A of the
Vehicle and Traffic Law (including vehicles carrying school children or
disabled people); or,
Carries hazardous materials required by federal law to be placarded.

In this link http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/broch/cdl/cdl10sec05.pdf it states, An air brake endorsement is only required if your vehicle needs a CDL. If your vehicle needs a CDL and has air over hydraulic brakes, you need to deal with the airbrake requirement.

I am searching for and not finding exemptions for a duece or a 10000 lb truck not being included in the commercial class of vehicles. Besides historical plates, where I have not found any exemptions on safety equipment, the only other exemption is a passenger plate on pickups less than 5500 lbs.

My search is being focused on New York and Penn Laws.

I will add more FACTS as I find them. I will restrain myself from posting opinions that may further confuse the already confused.

sprucemt said:

I am searching for and not finding exemptions for a duece or a 10000 lb truck not being included in the commercial class of vehicles. Besides historical plates, where I have not found any exemptions on safety equipment, the only other exemption is a passenger plate on pickups less than 5500 lbs.

My search is being focused on New York and Penn Laws.

I will add more FACTS as I find them. I will restrain myself from posting opinions that may further confuse the already confused.

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Facts are indeed very good. Be careful with New Yorks online information. I've seen many, many times where what they have published on the internet (where their very own DMV will send you to find this stuff) regulations that were placed under a current date on a "copy and paste" basis that is just versions of very obsolete, outdated and very incorrect information. Other times of course, it's fresh and up to date before DMV even knows it's coming.
Also to further confuse the issue in NY, look at the definitions for each set of laws. Time was (and there HAVE been changes to many things...) but time was they had a definition of commercial for your driving license, a DIFFERENT definition of commercial for your logging/hours of service requirements, and yet a DIFFERENT definition of commercial for your registration fees. At that time, the commercial requirements meant a LEO with a hair across his (nostril) could look for the fire extinguisher and triangles in most personally owned pickup trucks that were 3/4 ton or bigger since regardless of the registration and the GVW, the as manufacturered GCWR was over 10,000. It's been long enough that I am NOT stating that as a fact, just a possible heads up in interperiting many regulations that are far more confusing than they need to be.

sprucemt said:

In this link http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/broch/cdl/cdl10sec05.pdf it states, An air brake endorsement is only required if your vehicle needs a CDL. If your vehicle needs a CDL and has air over hydraulic brakes, you need to deal with the airbrake requirement.

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I agreee with your finding. Plain as day on an official publication it says that "YOU NEED AN AIR BRAKE ENDORSEMENT", but I think the document is horribly out of date (even if and probably is still in print) and a good example of my distaste for the availability of information from the state of NY. New York doesn't offer "air brake endorsements". You can not get one. The only thing you can do is not flunk the the air brakes part of a CDL, otherwise they'll issue you the "not valid for air brakes" restriction, The laws have changed, but the public information INCLUDING the manuals where you must LEARN SUCH LAWS from have not been updated.

NY and PA are certainly amoung the harder states to get along with, they'd both be happy (for a day) if everything but the hybrid electric commuter vehicles would just go away.

rizzo said:

If you drive within a 100 air mile radius from where you started your truck you don't have to fill out a log book, but you do have to document your on-duty hours. I think the cap is 12 .

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Regs changed. (Federally anyway), you now get 14. 11 driving and 3 on duty (or any combination up to that point). That's a very simple way to put it. The actual CFR is much more obtusely written. (I worked driving commercially until today).

As far as me having a Class "A" CDL (I do) and multiple endorsements (I do) and me driving my deuce interstate (I do); I haven't had any issues with LEO's other than them asking where, when and how much and where could they get one.

As far as not having plates on the deuce (I don't, not required to under Louisiana law), I carry a copy of the law in my waterproof Registration/Insurance card/emergency pack of cigarettes box because I HAVE met some LEO's who were ignorant of that section of Louisiana law.

I figure "Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it!" I could argue the case in court and win, but who wants the hassle? Ya know?