Extreme RV from M36a2

rustystud said:

It always takes more energy to change energy into another form. This is a Thermodynamics law. So if we take engine power (burning fuel) to make air-pressure then take that air-pressure to make electrical energy then I would guess we are loosing energy by a factor of 3. You engineer types can chime in at anytime here. The best is just take that engine power and make electrical power.

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Honorable rustystud-son, I most humbly present that the Law is Conservation of Energy.

And you are most thoroughly correct that the transfer of energy will likely involve inefficiencies that dissipate some of the original energy into various unintended channels.

No energy is ever "lost"; only spread out, so to speak.

You, Honorable Master, know this of course but speak of it not knowing some do not, and I only wish here to clarify to those yet to attain the pure enlightenment. Forgive my outspokenness.

rustystud said:

It always takes more energy to change energy into another form. This is a Thermodynamics law. So if we take engine power (burning fuel) to make air-pressure then take that air-pressure to make electrical energy then I would guess we are loosing energy by a factor of 3. You engineer types can chime in at anytime here. The best is just take that engine power and make electrical power.

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Another Ahab said:

Honorable rustystud-son, I most humbly present that the Law is Conservation of Energy.

And you are most thoroughly correct that the transfer of energy will likely involve inefficiencies that dissipate some of the original energy into various unintended channels.

No energy is ever "lost"; only spread out, so to speak.

You, Honorable Master, know this of course but speak of it not knowing some do not, and I only wish here to clarify to those yet to attain the pure enlightenment. Forgive my outspokenness.


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It is humbling to see such wisdom spewed forth for the benefit of the masses here. Although I left the Professional Engineering career behind way back in 1998 this thread is quasi nostalgic for me.
Gifted are those who can dissect a Physical Law into digestible nuggets for the layman's nurture.


Carry on.

Indeed one must also consider the transmission losses of everything - just like the resistance of wire loss, air must be plumbed through pipes and tanks. Belts must go around sheaves, etc...

If you were going to compress refrigerant with air pressure, a direct acting refrigerant pump would be the way to go (of course I'll caveat that I'm not aware of a commercial application of this) - "use the force" that is most suitable with the least conversions. Refrigeration is achieved with a phase change by playing with the pressure a media is contained in, there are instances of air over hydraulic pumps for liquid compression, and air over air compressors for low or very high gas compression. By not bothering with converting air pressure to rotational energy and then transmitting it through a belt to another rotary-to-pressure conversion mechanism, you're saving at least one conversion transmission step, and probably improving the total system efficiency.

If course if you think about it - you could probably just use the expansion of the air to do some cooling (i.e. using compressed air as your refrigerant). Doing a phase change with air is impractical in a vehicle, so your energy is limited, unless you pulled a heck of a vacuum in the line you were expanding the air into first...

Ok.. For the naysayers.. Scale this down, and run it on compressed air.

http://youtu.be/EvMLkbnXRPE

Simplistic enough.. And.. It would DEFINETLY run a single 12v alternator.

I mean they are getting 10KW out of something this compact... That would power my entire house... And it's transportable.

But everyone insists.. We need a big fuel tank, and bulky fossil fueled powered source.

I just want someone to try it.. (Since I'm to broke to do it.)

If it bombs.. I'll shush.

Otherwise.. I told you all so.. Ha.

One of these devices might come in handy for those guys a few years from now:

Another Ahab said:

One of these devices might come in handy for those guys a few years from now:


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That's what a muffler is for.

Uh no...

To put 70PSI through a 1/2" air line you need about 38 Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM) of compressed air capacity (storage/compression). The video shows three feed lines of at least 1/2" going into that turbine, but they are more likely 3/4" lines (about 57CFM @ 70psi). 114 - 171CFM is a butt-load of compressor!!! Here is a 125CFM @ 90psi rotary screw compressor from IR - it's $17,000, and runs on a 30HP (22.37kW) motor. This means if the video author had one of the more efficient high volume compressors to work with, his power generation was only 44.7% efficient (>50% was simply "lost" as waste energy in transmission and conversion).

Let's also take a more serious look at the compressor - it's 6 feet tall x 6 feet long x 3 feet deep (tank diameter), and literally weighs in at nearly a ton (1,881lbs). That's a fast way to turn a deuce into a 1.5 ton truck . This is just the compressor we're talking about, too. If you needed that on a truck, you'd still have to make the power to RUN the compressor. Last time I checked, a 30kW generator head is not small or light (and if you had 30kW of power generation to run this, why not take the easy-out and run an electric-powered Air-Con?). Okay, and you could argue that you just put the compressor on the engine - that's 30HP demand out of an engine on the M36 that left the factory with 127HP, or roughly 23.5% of the total engine HP just going to compressing air, and that power needs to come from burning fuel...

Youtube videos like this are known for touting a specific device, without looking at its entire "life-support system". The laws of thermodynamics are more like the law of gravity than the laws of the US Government - someone is always watching/enforcing, and those who argue with them are supposed to be for our amusement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_4h_eZLCZQ


Best thing the OP can do is reduce the cooling demand FIRST, then work back from that to figure out how much cooling they require for their comfort level, then figure out how to get that... It's the same way that buildings are designed NOW.

tim292stro said:

Uh no...

To put 70PSI through a 1/2" air line you need about 38 Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM) of compressed air capacity (storage/compression). The video shows three feed lines of at least 1/2" going into that turbine, but they are more likely 3/4" lines (about 57CFM @ 70psi). 114 - 171CFM is a butt-load of compressor!!! Here is a 125CFM @ 90psi rotary screw compressor from IR - it's $17,000, and runs on a 30HP (22.37kW) motor. This means if the video author had one of the more efficient high volume compressors to work with, his power generation was only 44.7% efficient (>50% was simply "lost" as waste energy in transmission and conversion).

Let's also take a more serious look at the compressor - it's 6 feet tall x 6 feet long x 3 feet deep (tank diameter), and literally weighs in at nearly a ton (1,881lbs). That's a fast way to turn a deuce into a 1.5 ton truck . This is just the compressor we're talking about, too. If you needed that on a truck, you'd still have to make the power to RUN the compressor. Last time I checked, a 30kW generator head is not small or light (and if you had 30kW of power generation to run this, why not take the easy-out and run an electric-powered Air-Con?). Okay, and you could argue that you just put the compressor on the engine - that's 30HP demand out of an engine on the M36 that left the factory with 127HP, or roughly 23.5% of the total engine HP just going to compressing air, and that power needs to come from burning fuel...

Youtube videos like this are known for touting a specific device, without looking at its entire "life-support system". The laws of thermodynamics are more like the law of gravity than the laws of the US Government - someone is always watching/enforcing, and those who argue with them are supposed to be for our amusement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_4h_eZLCZQ


Best thing the OP can do is reduce the cooling demand FIRST, then work back from that to figure out how much cooling they require for their comfort level, then figure out how to get that... It's the same way that buildings are designed NOW.

Click to expand...

Again, I'm suggesting someone with the capability to build one of these, do it scaled down for practical application.. Not to power Hoover Dam, or Feed every light in the Tri-state area.. Just to see if the air compressor on the Duece would run something like this.. And if so, could it power a generator of adequate application?

Another Ahab said:

Honorable rustystud-son, I most humbly present that the Law is Conservation of Energy.

And you are most thoroughly correct that the transfer of energy will likely involve inefficiencies that dissipate some of the original energy into various unintended channels.

No energy is ever "lost"; only spread out, so to speak.

You, Honorable Master, know this of course but speak of it not knowing some do not, and I only wish here to clarify to those yet to attain the pure enlightenment. Forgive my outspokenness.


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Most honored pupil, your audacity in speaking out does you and your ancestors credit. For yes those where my intentions, to bring enlightenment to all ! But then again maybe my original idea involved a "Closed Thermodynamic system" . For now I will let your outspokenness stand as an example to others. That the search for true wisdom and knowledge is a journey that must be undertaken with boldness and purity of spirit . It is not for the timid or weak of mind.

Ok guys. Its been quite some time. I've spent the last year and a half working as a third party contractor for the DOS in Iraq. Four months in Baghdad and a year in Basrah (southern Iraq). Finished up my contract the end of October. Missed the family quite a bit. It wasn't a full 1.5 years away though. I was gone for 3-4.5 months at a time with 28 days of R&R (25 after travel) between rotations. Now it's time to get back to the deuce. I have done a little since last post. Still quite a bit to go. First on the list is to fix the pain in the butt tail light. Haven't fixed it yet. Also looking to put the spin-on oil filter adapters on. When the heck is the Rausch Creek spring rally? It's good to be back home in the good old U.S.

daddy2 said:

Ok guys. Its been quite some time. I've spent the last year and a half working as a third party contractor for the DOS in Iraq. Four months in Baghdad and a year in Basrah (southern Iraq). When the heck is the Rausch Creek spring rally? It's good to be back home in the good old U.S.

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Welcome back.

Totally loving this project.

D2, Great project!
I see that folks have "subscribed" to you, but I'm not sure how to do that.
Give me some guidance on that if you can.
Also, I have read through all of the posts twice now and I didn't see anywhere, any details on the "crawl through" as you called it,
between the truck cab and the "camper" area.
Could you describe it or better yet post a few photos?
Thanks,
Modiconman

Modiconman said:

D2, Great project!
I see that folks have "subscribed" to you, but I'm not sure how to do that.
Give me some guidance on that if you can.

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"Subscribed" is just a way to automatically get all the thread updates:

- At the top-of-the-page of any thread you'll see a tool bar

- The tool bar lists selection options of "View First Unread", "Thread Tools", "Search Thread", and "Rate this Thread"

- Select on "Thread Tools" and follow the prompts from there, and you should be all good.

I might have left something out here in the explanation and if I did just let us know and we'll fill in the blank.

AA,
Thanks! I appears that I was already subscribed! Whoda thunk!
Thanks again for the info!
Modiconman

Modiconman said:

AA,
Thanks! I appears that I was already subscribed! Whoda thunk!
Thanks again for the info!
Modiconman

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Posting a REPLY to a given thread will automatically SUBSCRIBE you to that thread so you can keep up with future additions.

The manual subscribe method already shared is a good way to get updates without cluttering the thread with unnecessary chatter.

I have read all your posts and am impressed.I wondered where you went. Glad to hear you are back.
Here is a thought on it. Vortex compressed air cooling. Google it. We used a lot of them in the factory I worked in. They are for point cooling on machines. They have both a hot side and a cool side. I am not sure of the compressor CFM rating on a Deuce but they do use a bit. They do work and rather well. You might think of using them for like the cooling on an airplane. The twist valve over head for air. They would probably take too much air to cool the entire box however. They might be an option for just the truck cab. Center the vents over the center of the cab and tap off the air supply for the wipers. They do need an exhaust port for the hot side and they can be a bit loud. They do make mufflers for them. It is probably not what you need but others might benefit from the idea.

I'm sorry for not putting much on the site. I have been swamped with the honey do list. We did take the camper out during Deer season. It was great. Six days of dry camping with my new to hunting son (12 yrs old) and my father. We always wanted some land with a cabin, but having the camper was great. We took a site on PA State Game lands. The camper did great. No generator mounted to camper yet but I have a champion 3500watt generator. Great thing was the wireless remote. I was able to turn the gen off and on without going outside. I kept the gen in the front of the truck, under the engine. It fit good to protect it from any rain, it rained one night. It didn't fit all the way because of the front differential, but it worked well regardless. The propane heater worked great also. Enough water for 6 showers and still had extra water left over. I even broke down and got a microwave and we took a tv with my son's playstation something which we used for dvd's. One movie a night. When gen was not running, we had a led light or two that had batteries in them. I haven't mounted any batteries yet either, so not plug in electric or generator = no power. I did also add insulation to the floor, but from the inside. I used 2 layers of thin foam with reflective backing. It's used for pergo or linoleum flooring. I then put some indoor/outdoor carpeting in. I'll tell you what, This flooring made one heck of a difference. With moccasins on the floor was not bad at all. this year I would like to make a new back door, mount a generator and have one or two deep cell batteries with an inverter or converter thing. I would like to get some photos taken to post but I think I have to relearn how to post the photos. It would be even better if I could take a video and upload that.

As for the crawl through, I haven't got there yet. Still hashing out some of the things. I Still have to figure out the wiring thing. Brake lights and turnsignals aren't working right still. Plus I have had to change out way too many headlights since I've owned it. Must be something wrong. Truck also needs two new batteries. Two 12 volts wire in parallel. Batteries lasted 7 years, so I think it was a good run. I will try kto do a bit more with posts this year.