Dual Circuit Brake Engineering Thread

--- If you came here by mistake and are looking for disc brakes...
*NOTE:You may also like to check out the "Disc Brake Engineering Thread" for a separate but equally interesting issue. http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce-modification-hot-rodding/72967-disc-brake-engineering-thread.html
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This thread is meant as an engineering thread for discussion of how to convert the M35A2 Deuce single circuit brake system to a dual circuit system. Any and all means are acceptable and can be explored. I will reserve the first few posts for updates and any solutions that are found.

I realize there are some other threads around but this one is meant to be a sort of catch all as well as an engineering thread. Hopefully we can find an economical and safe solution.

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Just call Tom at CSI and order the handful of parts needed to split the system like a late 80's Air Force A2. If I remember right there's only 4-5 specific parts needed, the rest are common (like a 2nd airpack).

Yeah, but the A3 system can't use the winch shifter of the A2!

hndrsonj said:

Just call Tom at CSI and order the handful of parts needed to split the system like an A3. If I remember right there's only 4-5 specific parts needed, the rest are common (like a 2nd airpack).

Click to expand...

That kind of information is what we need Jim. I've looked at it and I just can't make heads or tails of what we need, and I also don't understand how it works. Maybe I need more coffee but if you or someone else can describe this specific solution, ie, how it works, what it does, and what you need it would be greatly appreciated.

Hopefully we can have a few different solutions posted up by the time we are done.

frodobaggins said:

That kind of information is what we need Jim. I've looked at it and I just can't make heads or tails of what we need, and I also don't understand how it works. Maybe I need more coffee but if you or someone else can describe this specific solution, ie, how it works, what it does, and what you need it would be greatly appreciated.

Hopefully we can have a few different solutions posted up by the time we are done.

Click to expand...

I talked to Tom 2-3 years ago about it. He said he can order just about anything from AMG. (AMG will NOT sell to individuals). I completely went through the split system manual and highlighted the hard to find needed parts. I'll look for it tonight. There's only 4-5 parts that will be hard to find. (Master Cyl, Master Cyl mount, there's a valve I can't remember and one or two other parts). The rest is just airpack and lines/fittings.

hndrsonj said:

I talked to Tom 2-3 years ago about it. He said he can order just about anything from AMG. (AMG will NOT sell to individuals). I completely went through the split system manual and highlighted the hard to find needed parts. I'll look for it tonight. There's only 4-5 parts that will be hard to find. (Master Cyl, Master Cyl mount, there's a valve I can't remember and one or two other parts). The rest is just airpack and lines/fittings.

Click to expand...

No hurry, but thanks in advance.

There is this post form HanksDeuce on your other Brake engineering thread:

"I found the following thread from Pirate 4x4. Uses 1994 Ford F-700 Bus rotors, rear calipers from a 2001 Ford F-550, and a master cylinder from a 1985 Chevy K30. On the last page of the thread a vendor is selling a front/rear kit for $1500 without brake hoses.

Rockwell wheel brakes w/ pics - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board "

Note the phrase in red.

There might be something there.

Also ... Mike mentioned finding something about a master from an American Motors Product ... maybe a Hornet wagon ... that *might* be the Master Cylinder part number we are looking for.

I have to get to a class ... but I will do the searches to check this stuff out when I get back tonight.

Thanks for this thread ... hopefully something will come from it.

oddshot

The master cylinder used is definately not from a K30 or a Hornet Wagon. The part numbers are all in the Split system manual. Memphis sells the master cylinders for around $250. The hard part to find is the master cylinder mount which only comes from AMG.

hndrsonj said:

The master cylinder used is definitely not from a K30 or a Hornet Wagon. The part numbers are all in the Split system manual. Memphis sells the master cylinders for around $250. The hard part to find is the master cylinder mount which only comes from AMG.

Click to expand...

Wow ... your memory is a LOT better than mine ... MikeW started crossing over the numbers and DEFINITELY didn't say it was a AMC Hornet!

He said it was a Javelin.

Check out this thread:

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce-modification-hot-rodding/1375-dual-circuit-brake-system-5.html

I don't know how far MikeW got with his looking ... you might want to drop him an email to find out how it all worked out.




BTW ...

I think we might be talking about TWO different things here:

A) replicating the dual circuit system found on the A3 ...

and

B) trying to come up with a (safe, reliable, cheap) dual circuit master cylinder as a basis to REPLACE the existing system. YES, I know that a booster (or a way to use mechanical advantage) will be required to reduce pedal effort.

oddshot

The manual for the split brake system is the SMI 9-2320-209-14&P. The “main” additional components are:
1. Park brake switch (on E-brake)-Saturn Surplus has these.
2. Brake warning light (on dash)-Saturn Surplus also has these.
3. Dual Reservoir Master Cylinder-Memphis has these.
P/N 5934071 around $250
4. Brake pedal linkage (mount)-AMG only item.
P/N 5934072 $202.06 cost to GOVT
5. Brake proportioning valve-AMG only item.
P/N 5934092 $68.80 cost to GOVT
6. Extra Air pack-Get anywhere.
7. You also need bulk tubing and nuts. 3/8 and ½”.
The split system creates a 2nd circuit for separating front brakes from the rears. It uses a 2nd air pack and incorporates a split master cylinder. The manual even shows drawings for how the tubing is bent. Basically if you can find the master cylinder mount and the proportioning valve, you can do it. I’d try CSI or use the internet to the GOVT suppliers to buy those two parts.

oddshot said:

There is this post form HanksDeuce on your other Brake engineering thread:

"I found the following thread from Pirate 4x4. Uses 1994 Ford F-700 Bus rotors, rear calipers from a 2001 Ford F-550, and a master cylinder from a 1985 Chevy K30. On the last page of the thread a vendor is selling a front/rear kit for $1500 without brake hoses.

Rockwell wheel brakes w/ pics - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board "

Note the phrase in red.

There might be something there.

Click to expand...

That was for putting in a pickup truck.

oddshot said:

BTW ...

I think we might be talking about TWO different things here:

A) replicating the dual circuit system found on the A3 ...

and

B) trying to come up with a (safe, reliable, cheap) dual circuit master cylinder as a basis to REPLACE the existing system. YES, I know that a booster (or a way to use mechanical advantage) will be required to reduce pedal effort.

oddshot

Click to expand...

I hope we are talking about both. Hopefully we can sort it out though

So we are not worried about winch trucks?

Didn't the late air force Deuces have split systems?.

Yup.

Why can't you take the m/c from a tractor or combine that has a dual break pedal, and just link that to the exiting break pedal on both rams. Then all you would have to do is split the air.