M35a2 oils

rustystud · Aug 18, 2015

welldigger said:
Just a warning to everyone wanting all of these super slick oils....your transmission may scratch worse when you shift. The syncros need an oil that has a little resistance to it to slow the gears down so they mesh properly.

I agree, that is why I will be "testing" the 50w Synthetic Shell oil. At work we tried out several "new" gear oils for our differentials. They all have planetaries on the hubs and the clearances are extremely critical . When one goes out it will take out the whole assembly costing "tens of thousands" of dollars to repair . So some "bright nut" in accounting tried to use some new fangled oils that the oil companies assured us would do everything we asked of them including wiping our butts afterwards ! Well as you can guess most all of them failed miserably !! We did find one synthetic that would work OK but it was $40.00 a quart ! The latest news I have heard is we are going back to the old 80/90w synthetic. This is one of many reasons that I always "question" the expert oil companies. The manufacturer of the item (transmission, differential, transfer-case ) in my book is always the last word. Now since our Spicer transmission is over 60 years old and yes, gear oils have come a long way. I have decided to experiment with mine.

brianp454 · Sep 28, 2015

I changed my White LDT-465-1D oil two years ago and used Chevron Delo LE 15W-40. I had 100 hours and 2900 miles since then. I'm burning a blend of a variety of used vegetable oils, used motor oils, used transmission fluids, used gear oils, waste gasoline, #2 diesel, bioddiesel, etc.I changed it out again and decided to take a sample to be sent in for analysis. I used the Cummins Fleetguard kit p/n CC02528 from the local Cummins shop for $29. The viscocity was just a tad under the spec at 100 deg C, but not anything to be concerned about. The levels of lead and tin were abnormally high. “Bearing metal at a SIGNIFICANT level.” This is based on 48 ppm lead and 8 ppm tin. See pic with report. Is this normal for a multifuel? Have others taken time out to have their oil analyzed?

I was disappointed that the particle size table was not populated... Given zinc is at 1417 ppm, do any of you think adding the zinc additive is helpful? Rustystud?

mobileauto2000 · Sep 28, 2015

My lead was at 31 and tin at 8 Blackstone says they should be about 27 and three but they did not flag them as scary high.
Now my iron was at 247 and aluminum at 48 but I did have a injector pump grenade on me.

Katahdin · Sep 28, 2015

This is what the military considers normal/abnormal, although its not clear to me how many hours were run on the engine to garner these results..

Attaching a recent report on my M109. Going by the above metrics I only seem high in lead and copper, which is an indicator of bearing wear...

Side note, I have had awful service with the NAPA/WIX labs - the first sample result was very late, two lab samples have disappeared. The Blackstone service has been good.

brianp454 · Sep 28, 2015

Thanks! Based on your data point and mine we're in the same neighborhood. Your iron is higher and I wonder if that means abnormal cylinder liner wear. Did your report include the particle sizes? How many hours on your sample?

I recall you having some issues a few months ago (oil pressure issue as well as the IP?) and and couldn't make it to some event. Hope to meet up with you one of these days.

mobileauto2000 said:
My lead was at 31 and tin at 8 Blackstone says they should be about 27 and three but they did not flag them as scary high.
Now my iron was at 247 and aluminum at 48 but I did have a injector pump grenade on me.

brianp454 · Sep 28, 2015

Great post! Wow, my report seems to be a bit better than yours. How many hours on your sample? I wonder how good their measurements are and if they are consistent within a given lab or in comparison to another lab. I searched and found http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ They are a bit cheaper than Cummins. The Cummins kit comes with a prepaid shipping label. Does the blackstone kit have free shipping? I've been poking around for a local test lab and would prefer to do it that way.

Katahdin said:
This is what the military considers normal/abnormal, although its not clear to me how many hours were run on the engine to garner these results..

View attachment 584467 View attachment 584468

Attaching a recent report on my M109. Going by the above metrics I only seem high in lead and copper, which is an indicator of bearing wear...
View attachment 584469

Side note, I have had awful service with the NAPA/WIX labs - the first sample result was very late, two lab samples have disappeared. The Blackstone service has been good.

Katahdin · Sep 28, 2015

Just 41 hours on my sample, but if the Carnac's records are accurate, my engine only saw 38 miles of use after its 1985 rebuild. I'd like to think I'm "breaking it in." :driver:

mobileauto2000 · Sep 28, 2015

2000 miles. I actually pulled the heads to look at my liners. still see hone marks. The advance mechanism in my injector pump ground itself apart. I believe that is where the high iron and aluminum came from.

rustystud · Sep 28, 2015

brianp454 said:
I changed my White LDT-465-1D oil two years ago and used Chevron Delo LE 15W-40. I had 100 hours and 2900 miles since then. I'm burning a blend of a variety of used vegetable oils, used motor oils, used transmission fluids, used gear oils, waste gasoline, #2 diesel, bioddiesel, etc.I changed it out again and decided to take a sample to be sent in for analysis. I used the Cummins Fleetguard kit p/n CC02528 from the local Cummins shop for $29. The viscocity was just a tad under the spec at 100 deg C, but not anything to be concerned about. The levels of lead and tin were abnormally high. “Bearing metal at a SIGNIFICANT level.” This is based on 48 ppm lead and 8 ppm tin. See pic with report. Is this normal for a multifuel? Have others taken time out to have their oil analyzed?

I was disappointed that the particle size table was not populated... Given zinc is at 1417 ppm, do any of you think adding the zinc additive is helpful? Rustystud?

View attachment 584471

I would start using an Zinc additive right now. All those reports I just read indicate your all using emissions rated oils. None of those oils have enough Zinc in them for a NON-roller cam. Remember almost all diesel engines today use roller cams so the oil manufacturers are designing their oils to just meet emissions standards and there not adding any wear additives. After all, why should they. Who's running old non-roller cam diesels anymore except us old vehicle collectors.

Another Ahab · Sep 29, 2015

rustystud said:
I would start using an Zinc additive right now. All those reports I just read indicate your all using emissions rated oils. None of those oils have enough Zinc in them for a NON-roller cam. Remember almost all diesel engines today use roller cams so the oil manufacturers are designing their oils to just meet emissions standards and there not adding any wear additives. After all, why should they. Who's running old non-roller cam diesels anymore except us old vehicle collectors.

VW claims that their diesels have NO emissions.

Maybe you all should be using THEIR oil. :mrgreen:

brianp454 · Sep 29, 2015

Zinc additive

rustystud said:
I would start using an Zinc additive right now. All those reports I just read indicate your all using emissions rated oils. None of those oils have enough Zinc in them for a NON-roller cam. Remember almost all diesel engines today use roller cams so the oil manufacturers are designing their oils to just meet emissions standards and there not adding any wear additives. After all, why should they. Who's running old non-roller cam diesels anymore except us old vehicle collectors.

Thanks Rusty. This begs the question: How much zinc is needed? Does anyone have an analysis of an oil sample with the proper amount of zinc additive? How do you know what ppm level is proper?

mobileauto2000 · Sep 29, 2015

Also there are so many Zinc additives out there, how about some recommendations please.

Flyingvan911 · Sep 29, 2015

I sent an oil sample to the NAPA lab and never heard back. I'll have to try Blackstone.

brianp454 · Sep 29, 2015

Rustystud uses this stuff: http://zddplus.com/
I did some more poking around and it seems to me that the zinc and phosphorus levels as measured in my Chevron Delo LE 15W-40 are good. I say that based on the links below. Also, the complete lack of boron may suggest that they are not adding it to offset the lack of zinc.
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012/10/18/tech-101-zinc-in-oil-and-its-effects-on-older-engines/
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0702-pitstop-zinc-oil-additive/
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/dro/training-center/articles/zinc-in-motor-oil/
Compare to Amsoil levels:
http://www.amsoil.lube-direct.com/2011/07/high-zinc-oil-amsoil/
There’s also a good youtube video titled ”Will new oil with less zinc damage your old engine?”

arno · Sep 29, 2015

@ all those guys where LiquiMoly is available:
I wrote a query to LM today regarding their LIQUI MOLY TOURING HIGH TECH 20W-50, Art. 1255.
The response came within a few hours: The oil contains around 1000ppm of Zn.
To increase the amount of Zn, the Engineer recommended adding 4% of HYDRAULIK-SYSTEM-ADDITIV, Art. 5116
which would raise the amount of Zn to around 1600ppm.

Greets

Arno

frank8003 · Sep 29, 2015

ZDDP SAE paper 7700876 02011977.docx which I can't afford

Paper #:
· 770087

Published:
· 1977-02-01
DOI:
· 10.4271/770087
Citation:
Pless, L. and Rodgers, J., "Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDP Concentration and Type," SAE Technical Paper 770087, 1977, doi:10.4271/770087.
Author(s):
· Loren G. Pless
· John J. Rodgers
Affiliated:
· Fuels and Lubricants Dept., General Motors Corp.
Pages:
14
Abstract:
The recent increase in excessive camshaft and lifter wear after extended service has shown that some SE-quality engine oils do not provide adequate protection.
To determine the effects of oil additives on wear, controlled tests were run using 1972-1974 model cars, unleaded gasoline, and either SE commercial products or experimental formulations. Field experience with 1970-1975 model trucks, leaded gasoline, and SE/CC or SE/CD oils was also investigated.
With some commercial oils, in both controlled tests and field experience, excessive wear sometimes occurred after extended service, even with recommended oil-change intervals. Generally, protection from excessive wear was best provided by those oils containing pre-dominantly alkyl ZDP (zinc dithiophosphate) antiwear additive instead of aryl ZDP. These results show that a laboratory engine test is needed to evaluate the long-term wear protection of engine oils.

Anyhow if I just put Rottella T in the multifuel, {five gallons!}, filter it good and change it often is that good enough or am I wasting time and money?

and this from 2008
View attachment ZDDP and Cam Wear - Just Another Engine Oil Myth.pdf

rustystud · Sep 30, 2015

frank8003 said:
ZDDP SAE paper 7700876 02011977.docx which I can't afford

Paper #:
· 770087

Published:
· 1977-02-01
DOI:
· 10.4271/770087
Citation:
Pless, L. and Rodgers, J., "Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDP Concentration and Type," SAE Technical Paper 770087, 1977, doi:10.4271/770087.
Author(s):
· Loren G. Pless
· John J. Rodgers
Affiliated:
· Fuels and Lubricants Dept., General Motors Corp.
Pages:
14
Abstract:
The recent increase in excessive camshaft and lifter wear after extended service has shown that some SE-quality engine oils do not provide adequate protection.
To determine the effects of oil additives on wear, controlled tests were run using 1972-1974 model cars, unleaded gasoline, and either SE commercial products or experimental formulations. Field experience with 1970-1975 model trucks, leaded gasoline, and SE/CC or SE/CD oils was also investigated.
With some commercial oils, in both controlled tests and field experience, excessive wear sometimes occurred after extended service, even with recommended oil-change intervals. Generally, protection from excessive wear was best provided by those oils containing pre-dominantly alkyl ZDP (zinc dithiophosphate) antiwear additive instead of aryl ZDP. These results show that a laboratory engine test is needed to evaluate the long-term wear protection of engine oils.

Anyhow if I just put Rottella T in the multifuel, {five gallons!}, filter it good and change it often is that good enough or am I wasting time and money?
View attachment 584762

and this from 2008
View attachment 584763

I also use "Rotella T Synthetic" for older engines. I know they make a number of different blends so you just have to read what they say on the back label. I have heard that you can use to much Zinc (2000 max) so I just add the ZDDP additive (which is a "Alkyldithiophosphate" ) which makes mine around 1600ppm which is ideal. I know it adds about $16.00 to the oil change but for me that's cheap insurance.

rmgill · Sep 30, 2015

rustystud said:
I have never heard of any additive that could take out a steel bearing. The needle bearings in this transmission are not that small either. You also never use "engine" oil in a manual gear box. The oil is not recommended for the pressures exerted in a gear box.

Not to muddy the waters here but I have owned two vehicles that use engine oil in the manual gear boxes.

The Daimler Dingo uses SAE 30 (OE HD30) in the gear box. A wilson pre-selector manual transmission.
The Transfer case uses SAE 50 (OE HD50). That's a differentiual and forwards/reverse selector box (rather than high-low ratios) thus giving 5 speeds forwards and 5 in reverse.

The Daimler Ferret uses SAE 30 (OMD-110) in the Gearbox, also a Wilson Pre-selector.

These ARE rather unusual manual gear boxes though. So rather an odd case/rebuttal point.

Here's some details on the gear boxes. http://www.ferret-fv701.co.uk/engine_and_gearbox.htm

VPed · Sep 30, 2015

Regular STP oil treatment has zinc, is available everywhere, and is cheap.

frank8003 · Sep 30, 2015

VPed said:
Regular STP oil treatment has zinc, is available everywhere, and is cheap.

Now that is interesting!

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