mep-004a vs civ generator

I have been on the marketed for a generator for couple of years now. Looking at different options looking at models from places like lowes since get a military discount ,then Home Depot ect..... Then getting a lp tank is just crazy no will sell one with $150 year lease if you don't. Burn 500 gals per year. Then what happens if I can't get fuel...screwed. That being said looking at diesel is looking better. Also I have a M35a2 with lds4651a muilt- fuel.
So my question is i am looking at mep-004a it's been complete reworked new everything ready to go with 1 yr warrant plus 24hr service free for $5500
15kw but I know she can handle more but it is old 1980 model
So should I buy it or buy a new one
Thanks for input
Happy Veterans Day brothers

Ok, just a few random early morning thoughts:

Why a MEP-004a, they do have their uses, but it looks to me like you are in the market for a home standby, and to be honest a MEP-004a is massive overkill for most people, when it comes to diesel generators, bigger is not better, not only do they consume more fuel, diesel engines really like to be ran at over 50% load or you may find they develop problems with wet stacking, etc. this is less of a problem on the smaller air cooled diesels since they run hotter, but is a known issue on the water cooled units like the MEP-004a and MEP-005a.

Second point, I know some of what you may be paying for is that service, etc., but $5,500 for a MEP-004a sounds a bit high to me, but then again I tend to buy my generators straight from GL, and roll the dice on getting a paperweight. MEP-004a's typically selll for around $1,500 on GL, but that is as is, which may mean paperweight, may need work, or may even run if you are lucky.

For many people wanting an emergency standby generator for their homes, the 3 KW MEP-016d or MEP-016e, or maybe a 5KW MEP-002a is about ideal, for those with larger electrical demand, perhaps wanting to run a mid size central air conditioner, then a MEP-003a may be best, but anything bigger really does need special consideration if it is the right match for you.



Ike

I add up everything that I wanted to run if power goes out. And I am about up to 11kw-13kw plus or minus. I have a 200 amp services in my home. Talked to electrician(friend) said to me I need a 15 kw.
I have 3 small boys couple years after building my home I wanted to get a generator but couldn't at the time. What you know it snowed,sleet fell and power went out for about 2 weeks here. That being said a mep-004 is a 15 kw
military grade made to last. I have meet some people last couple weeks that have 15 kw and the love it, What's your thoughts thanks for your time

The thing is the military greatly under rates their generators, and most stuff sold to the residential market it greatly over rated, I hate to go right out and say that a military 10KW is equal to a permanently installed residential 15KW, because things are not that simple . In some ways they are a little less than equal, in other ways they greatly exceed them. Let me see if I can explain that a bit better, first off the military units are built to provide their rated output 24x7x the service life of the unit (usually 5,000 hours between rebuilds) in extreme conditions (most models at up to 120 degrees F), plus being conservatively rated at that. By comparison, residential generators are somewhat optimisticly rated, under far less rigorous conditions with a rated output for limited run time not to exceed 500 hours per year at 86 degrees F, with a service derate of usually 1% for every degree F over 86 degrees F. The military units also have an incredible motor starting load capacity in the 300% output range for momentary loads, the civilian units are often closer to 120-150%, this is part of why the military units weigh so much more than their civilan counter parts (a 10KW MEP-003a weighs in around 1,300 pounds).

Now down to that power budget, are they really all things you need to run at once, because when looking at a long power outage it tends to always be about minimizing fuel use, and the bigger the generator you buy the more fuel you will use. With a 12+ KW energy budget that you listed I assume you live in an all electric house and want to run things like electric water heater, and an electric clothes dryer, etc. what else? Could you survive with a little more active load management by doing things like turning off the water heater while running the drier, or other high load (electric stove) items?

For comparison on what is possible with a small generator let me tell you about mine, which is minimalistic in nature, using a 3KW MEP-701a I am able to power all of things in my house that I consider critical loads (I do have natural gas for the stove and central heat, otherwise electric including water heater). With this small generator I can provide power to my refrigerator and chest freezer, as well as run an 8,800 btu window air conditioner and a 14,000 btu portable air conditioner during a summer (hurricane) outage (while these will not keep the house cool, they will keep selective parts liveable, as I unforetuneately learned last summer when the central air was out for 5 days), in addition to these major loads I also can run a number CF lights, the tv, computer, etc. For winter outages substitute the central heat blower for one of the air conditioners, and maybe a cube heater, electric blanket, etc. if needed. This generator does not provide enough power to run the water heater, but I can heat water on the gas stove if necessary, stepping up to a 5KW MEP-002a (I have one of these too, but it is stored at the family farm 20 miles away) would allow much the same life style, but add the ability to use the water heater and do laundry by cycling through running the water heater or clothes dryer while turning off the major loads like the air conditioner while the water is heating for about an hour.

Ike

p.s. when adding up loads, it is important to use the actual figures from your appliacnes, best if measured, numbers from the data plates makes an acceptable fall back, but beware those are generally worst case numbers and your typical draw may be 20-30% less, the charts found online for typical watt draws are useless, it seems the same charts have been republished for many years, and are not reflective of modern appliances, light bulbs, etc. As an example almost all modern flat panel LCD TV's draw under 100 watts, and most of the newest ones draw under 50 watts in the 42-50 inch size range (one random chart I just looked at shows 200 watts for a 32 inch tv). Another chart shows 1,200 watts for basic lighting or 4,000 watts for full lighting, a modern CF bulb draws aroun 13 watts, so that basic lightling 1,200 watts is equal to 92 CF bulbs.

have to agree with isaac-1 here. i have an all-electric house (heat pump for heat/AC, dryer, range/stove, hot water, etc). i debated an 003 vs an 004, but eventually got an 003 and am quite happy i did. as isaac-1 says, fuel usage becomes a significant issue when you're running the gen for a week or two. my 003 burns about .75gal/hr on average. expect an 004 to burn at least 1.5gal/hr regardless of load. do the math. a one week outage would break down as 126 gallons for the 003 and 252 gallons for the 004. at $3.75/gal, that's $472.50 for the 003 and $945 for the 004!!!

in the case of my home, i manage my loads minimally. i have 4 'major' loads - heat pump, dryer, range/stove, hot water. i have a well pump, and while it is 220v, it does not seem to draw a lot of power. i can run any two simultaneously with no problem. i never 'turn off' the water heater. if i want to run just one burner on the stove (in addition to two 'major' loads) that also works fine. if i want to dry clothes or run the oven, i'll turn the thermostat to 'off'. in the winter, its never a problem as we would probably have the wood stove going anyway. in the summer, we just wait till evening to run the dryer or turn the AC off long enough to cook. unfortunately in the last 18 months i've had quite a bit of experience (over 100 hours on gen power), so i'm pretty comfortable saying the 003 is likely to be sufficient for most homes. a water-cooled 004 is likely to be so unloaded so much of the time, you'll be burning a TON of extra fuel for the convenience of not doing any load management. sure, not worrying at all about loads is great, but you're probably going to have to do the inverse; regularly make sure you turn on EVERYTHING you can to actually exercise the unit, meanwhile burning a TON more fuel ALL the time.

to add on to Ike's PS - when none of my 4 'major' loads are running, the gen's power meter shows around 5% utilitization. we do ZERO load management on the minor stuff; lights, TV, computers, etc. its the big loads you need to consider, and their required concurrency.

ahm

the 004 is a 3 phase unit. which means 10 kw off any 2 phases. i used mine like this and wired up 4 20 amp receps. on the 3rd phase to get the other 5kw. it can be wired up for single phase as many here have done but you will lose some capacity. so if you really need 13 kw you might go with the 005 as pulling 2 phases will give you 20 kw.

err - that's not really correct. an 004 IS a 3 phase unit, but thanks to sewerzuk's hard work, brains, and experimentation, it can be reconnected to single phase. i believe in his tests, after reconnection, he was able to pull nearly the full 15KW. iusing an 004 or 005 as wired for the military will give you 208v hot to hot, but because of the phase differential between the two legs, many loads will not like it (translation: magic smoke will escape). specifically, motors like compressors in your fridge and AC, well pump, etc. resistive loads like stovetops or water heaters will not break, but they will function with reduced output.

ahm

"if you really need 13 kw you might go with the 005 as pulling 2 phases will give you 20 kw."

Jim owns Exxon stock.

I was initially looking at an -004a also, but after reading threads like these, I realized that the -003a will be plenty sufficient for my needs.

An 002a runs everything we really need in a big house with propane heat, H20 and cook-top, including necessary lights, TV, computers, refrigeration and well pump. As Ike says, it only involves minimal power management and it only sucks 1/2 gallon per hour at load.
Jerry

amolavor whats not correct? i turn the voltage up 127/220 run all my stuff and a/c. my a/c can use 208 or 240, but i havnt seen anything that would run on 240 not like 220. no lose of capacity.

see this http://www.nojolt.com/three_phase_and_single_phase_electric.shtml shortest summation i can give (cribbed from that link): "Notice that single phase two pole current - 220 or 240 volt usually controlled by double pole breakers in the service panel, is single phase because the negative voltage peak of one conductor coincides with the positive voltage peak carried by the other conductor." This is in contrast to 3 phase, described as, "Three phase service is just three single phase lines which are out of phase by one third of a cycle so that the individual voltages peak one after another in sequence."

the point is that in single phase, you have two waveforms with a max of 120v (relative to ground) 180 degrees out of phase. so when one is +120v, the other is -120v. each of the two waveforms are in opposition to each other, but always at the same absolute value of amplitude; if one is at +80v, the other is at -80v, etc. in three phase, using two legs, while one is at +120v, the other is at about -60v. the imbalance doesn't make motors mfr'd for single phase happy. they will not likely survive long operated like that.

ahm

A lot of info guys,but still on the fence on 15kw. I think a 10 kw will not do what I need I live pretty conserved but don't want to be close I would rather to have to much and not need it. Than need it and not have it. The price is high $5500 for 15kw reworked,another surplus dealer has a 30 kw for $5000 so it's a lot of money , but I want to go diesel instead of LP/Natural because if need fuel I can get it and don't have to lease a tank.
everything in my home is electrical /200amp /2000 sq
thanks
Jeremy

If spending $1000 vs $500 a week of runtime isn't an issue, go for it, but only if you're comfortable doing the reconnection per sewerzuk's research - http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...for-different-voltages-including-single-phase. an 004 (and 005) are delivered to the military as 3 phase units. this is NOT the kind of power you have in your house. it must be reconnected to safely power your home (and get the actual 15KW out of it). the 003 has a reconnection switch on it that allows you to use the gen to create 120v only, 120/240v single phase, or 120/208 3 phase.

as a point of interest, my house is 400 (well, 350) amp service and about 2600sq ft. the 003 is perfectly sized for it IMO. as others have said, i think going to an 004 has many more drawbacks than pros. the fuel consumption obviously is a big one. an 004 has a water cooling subsystem - just one more thing (well, many things really) to go wrong. it has to be reconnected to deliver single phase power - not a massively complex task, but i'd suggest you read through sewerzuk's thread and watch his videos to decide if that's something you can do - it is not a plug and play operation. it is MUCH heavier and bigger and typically is sold (via GL) on a trailer that requires air brakes as opposed to the simple pintle hookup / surge brakes on the 003's trailer. an 004 will have to be periodically intentionally loaded up with **** near every electrical device you own to keep it healthy since your 90th percentile load will probably be in the 5-10% of capacity...

i am absolutely of the opinion that more is more and bigger is better generally in this case however, there is something to be said for being 'rightsized', and an 003 is almost certainly the best match for you.

ahm

200 amp service panel
Ok I add up all the breakers in panel
16 @ 20 amps
4 @ 15 amps
2 double poles @ 40 amps
3 double poles @ 30 aamps , water heater 10,000 watts , couldn't find anything on heat pump just cb29m-31-1p 230/208v 1/3hp
ac unit 12hpb30-10p 230/208v 1/6 HP
stove 13.5 kw at 230/208v @ 60 HZ 3 wire or 10.5 kw @ AC only
ref 2600 watts running 3800 start up
just stove is 13.5 wow.
the guy came down on price of the 30 kw $4500 with year warranty also said he would bring it here hook it up let it run for a couple hours to show how much fuel it uses, he said that it would run at 85% load use .5 gal per hour or run fully loaded 1.0 gal per hr for 25 hrs then still have 5 gals +\- left in it
so that would be $36 per day @ $252 weekly @ $3.00 per gal

Adding up the breakers in your panel is probably the easiest way to estimate maximum amp draw, it is also the least accurate. Let me use the example of a modern LCD flat panel tv plugged into its own circuit, that breaker is going to be sized for a 15 amp load (or 1800 watts), even though a modern tv may draw under 50 watts. Data Plates on the appliaces themselves are somewhat better, but you should remmeber these show worst case loads. In the example of your stove I suspect it may contain a self cleaning oven which draws consideraly more power when in cleaning mode than in typical operation. This does not even bring about the quesiton of do you really need to be able to run all 5 burners and the oven while on generator power? By chance do you have a digital electrical meter on your service entrance, some of them will cycle through showing lots of usefull statistical information, like instant amp draw, 5 minute and 1 hour average, etc.

As to the guy claiming .5GPH at 85% load, I call BS, this is not possible (most likely it is not really at 85% load, more like 25-30%), full load fuel consumption for ANY 15KW diesel generator will be about 1.25-1.5 GPH, When it comes to 1800 rpm diesel generators, there is not much variation in fuel economy (maybe 10-15%)

Ike

30KW @ 85% load drawing .5gal/hr. not unless it's a magical generator from the land of quadruple XL gallons. and where are you getting diesel for $3/gallon?

you seem set on something bigger than 10KW despite not understanding your actual draws; adding up the breakers is a fairly useless excercise. might as well say you need to deliver 200 amps@240v since that's what your service is. no problem - now you just need a 50KW gen. your per-device numbers sound frankly bonkers. a fridge that draws 20+ amps running and 31+ starting? definitely not. a typical draw would be in the 1-2 amp range, with the defrost cycle MAYBE burning 5. a stove might burn 13KW if you have the stove on the clean cycle and turn all the range burners on high. maybe. you do that often? while the heat is on? with the dryer running? if you think you might need to do that on generator power, i guess you do need at least an 004 and probably an 005.

per your original question, an 004 for $5500 seems quite high to me even with a warranty and service, but maybe that's just me. an 003 will be plenty for you, but since you really want to go bigger, **** the torpedoes and do it. its your money.

ahm

Do you have a way to hook up a generator now (ie a transfer switch or interlock)?
If so, for a hundred (or so, now counting insurance or damage fees) you could rent a 10-15 KW trailer mounted genset from a commercial rental place (or if you know someone who has one that they could bring over) and you could then test how much juice you need to run everything.

Aaron Z

Turn on everything then get a clamp on amp meter and read the actual load off of your main lines (inside the power box or get your electrician to do it if you are not familiar). I e clamp the meter around each cable to get your amp draw. This is the most accurate way to tell max load. Or you could just figure out your kW /hr load from your power bill but that doesn't take into account peak loads and is just an average. Reduce your loads using led lighting and get rid of vampire loads that stay on but are not useful

amolaver said:

err - that's not really correct. an 004 IS a 3 phase unit, but thanks to sewerzuk's hard work, brains, and experimentation, it can be reconnected to single phase. i believe in his tests, after reconnection, he was able to pull nearly the full 15KW. iusing an 004 or 005 as wired for the military will give you 208v hot to hot, but because of the phase differential between the two legs, many loads will not like it (translation: magic smoke will escape). specifically, motors like compressors in your fridge and AC, well pump, etc. resistive loads like stovetops or water heaters will not break, but they will function with reduced output.



ahm

Click to expand...

Amy way to balance those two phases better for 110/220 I just bought an 005 with a huge desalination system I plan to use for desal several days a month and to power a large number of AC units answveral fridges at night in my island hotel in Colombia. Thx for any info