Cold Advance issues

[AECS]

Here is my issue. My truck starts great in the morning, and runs strong Fast idle works great, and I assume cold advance works good. Restarts great, runs strong. However if it sets a couple hours and cools off, but not cold it will start, but runs rough, and smokes like heck, for about 30 or so seconds, once it warms up it returns to normal. I am thinking the cold advance sensor on the passenger head is opening at to cool a temp and not running the advance/hi idle.

I need to get a meter on it to see if I am getting my voltage at that in between temp, any other ideas? The part is 70 bucks at Orielys, and 100 everywhere else, even Napa has gone up to 140 for it.

 

[armytruck63]

How far do you have the choke pulled out?

JUST KIDDING!

 

[AECS]

Why I have it pulled as far as it will go, of course....

 

[alpine44]

Here is my issue. My truck starts great in the morning, and runs strong Fast idle works great, and I assume cold advance works good. Restarts great, runs strong. However if it sets a couple hours and cools off, but not cold it will start, but runs rough, and smokes like heck, for about 30 or so seconds, once it warms up it returns to normal. I am thinking the cold advance sensor on the passenger head is opening at to cool a temp and not running the advance/hi idle.

I need to get a meter on it to see if I am getting my voltage at that in between temp, any other ideas? The part is 70 bucks at Orielys, and 100 everywhere else, even Napa has gone up to 140 for it.

My M1009 also starts worst after sitting for a while but not being stone-cold yet. What part are you talking about for 70 bucks at O'Reilly's?

 

[AECS]

It is the cold advance switch, rear of passenger head, two prong connector. it will start, but it is very rough, and smokey. Pump was rebuilt a week ago.

 

[Chaski]

It sounds less like cold advance and more like glow plug controller issues... or injection issues

 

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I thought the cold advance just gave it a little throttle. increasing idle speed until the engine warmed up. If that's not working for you, you should be able to achieve the same effect by giving it a little throttle via the accelerator pedal, right? If we're only talking about 30 seconds, and only when not-really-cold starting, this seems like not too much trouble... Am I missing something?

 

[Chaski]

I thought the cold advance just gave it a little throttle. increasing idle speed until the engine warmed up. If that's not working for you, you should be able to achieve the same effect by giving it a little throttle via the accelerator pedal, right? If we're only talking about 30 seconds, and only when not-really-cold starting, this seems like not too much trouble... Am I missing something?

The cold advance actually advances the injection timing too.

 

[alpine44]

The cold advance actually advances the injection timing too.

Yes, you can hear that clearly if you drive (slowly) immediately after starting a cold engine. Once the pump goes out of high-idle/cold-advance mode, the combustion noise decreases considerably. (High-idle by itself would not change anything while driving with the pump delivery controlled by the pedal.)

I am sure that the high-idle/cold-advance and the glow plug controller work as designed on my M1009. The old-school controllers are just not as good dealing with the grey area between hot and cold as more modern ECUs. I will add a manual glow switch to make "lukewarm" starting easier. It is not that bad right now. However, when really cold or hot the engine fires on the first revolution but when lukewarm it takes a couple more turns.

 

[Skinny]

I would verify that it isn't a GP issue. Sounds like you are not getting a short burst of GP like it should have which may cause those symptoms. Try manually triggering the GP's or verifying that you are getting the solenoid engagement before going any further.

 

[alpine44]

How far do you have the choke pulled out?

JUST KIDDING!

Just as a side note: I actually like the really old, fully manual systems.

After a couple years of practice I can fire up my Piper Cub on the first pull of the prop in any weather. If you do not have an electric starter that allows you to brute force things with long cranking, you have a very strong incentive to learn and memorize priming procedures that will fire on the first spark.

Similar experience with my snow blower. Once I installed an electric starter I got a whole lot lazier with tuning the engine to peak performance.

 

[Skinny]

I was taught to hand prop once. I always liked it as a Plan C. Plan A...use starter, Plan B...do I have to fly today?...Plan C...remember to pull back at end of stroke

 

[alpine44]

I would verify that it isn't a GP issue. Sounds like you are not getting a short burst of GP like it should have which may cause those symptoms. Try manually triggering the GP's or verifying that you are getting the solenoid engagement before going any further.

I can hear the GP cycle by listening to the speed of the defrost fan. The GP are powered well after the "Wait" light goes out and turning the key later helps for lukewarm starts.

Before installing and using a manual GP switch I will measure compression and change the GPs. I got the vehicle about a month ago and do not have a full baseline of its condition yet.

 

[AECS]

Glow plugs are cycling as advertised, I get the wait light, and can see the Volt meter drop, but when warm, not hot not cold, it still is a bear to start.

 

[alpine44]

Glow plugs are cycling as advertised, I get the wait light, and can see the Volt meter drop, but when warm, not hot not cold, it still is a bear to start.

Try this:
Turn the key on until the "Wait" light goes off. Then, turn key off and back on. When the "Wait" light goes out for the second time, crank.
If this makes it easier to start, you may not get enough heat with one glow cycle (due to weak/failed plugs, faulty GP controller/sensor, etc.).
If you get the same results as with one cycle then I would suspect that something is not right with the cold-advance of the pump.

 

[rsh4364]

On my 86 1009,24v starter,GP resistor bypass,manual only 60g GPs.I glow 15-20 seconds when below 30 degrees,fires right up.If its parked for more than 2 hrs and below 75 out I glow it for 5-10 seconds and fires right up.If I don't glow when below 75 it cranks maybe 5-7 seconds.This 1009s compression check had 425-430 on every cylinder.I like the manual GP setup,puts me in charge of starting,be it very cold out,cold out,lukewarm or hot.In fact even when 80 out if it sets for 10-12 hrs it still gets glowed.

 

[Hasdrubal]

On my 86 1009,24v starter,GP resistor bypass,manual only 60g GPs.I glow 15-20 seconds when below 30 degrees,fires right up.If its parked for more than 2 hrs and below 75 out I glow it for 5-10 seconds and fires right up.If I don't glow when below 75 it cranks maybe 5-7 seconds.This 1009s compression check had 425-430 on every cylinder.I like the manual GP setup,puts me in charge of starting,be it very cold out,cold out,lukewarm or hot.In fact even when 80 out if it sets for 10-12 hrs it still gets glowed.

I am in totally agreement with this, its been borne out of my experience of 11 years daily driving.

 

[Chaski]

How did you time the new pump? Your timing might be too retarded.

 

[AECS]

Chaski, you nailed it. It was a half a hair behind the line, so I bumped it up a half a hair advanced and it is acting right! Thanks all!