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ECO Hubs Who needs 3:07 gears?

Ronmar

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Ok, on that tune you are probably going to ramp pretty steadily from ~300ft/lb at idle to ~800 ft/lb at 1450RPM. Thats ~72 ft/lb of increase per 100 RPM. If you advance the pedal slowly and note at what engine RPM the truck starts to move, we can get an idea how much engine torque it is taking to pull your truck up that 10%/5.7deg slope. And of course how accurate is that 10% slope number:) Details details...
 
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MatthewWBailey

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Ok, on that tune you are probably going to ramp pretty steadily from ~300ft/lb at idle to ~800 ft/lb at 1450RPM. Thats ~72 ft/lb of increase per 100 RPM. If you advance the pedal slowly and note at what engine RPM the truck starts to move, we can get an idea how much engine torque it is taking to pull your truck up that 10%/5.7deg slope. And of course how accurate is that 10% slope number:) Details details...
I'll go measure it. I have a 12' level
 

MatthewWBailey

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I'll go measure it. I have a 12' level
And of course how accurate is that 10% slope number:) Details details...
Here's the measurement. It's only a 40' section of driveway but rises at 9.75 degrees. I was surprised it was that much. No wonder I spin around when plowing snow. The backhoe does a 180 on that spot without my chains. So that comes to 17% grade.
It's a pain bc I have to stop dead on that rise for traffic to pass.
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MatthewWBailey

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Ok, so nearly 10deg not 10%… be curious what engine RPM it takes to get you moving on that slope…
I'm rigging up my tach off the alt R terminal just to test it. I can use the spare/unused 568A energize wire from K11 since it's already up in the PDP. The delco instructions say 10pulses per rpm, then I got the pulley ratio too. I think that's 2.5:1
 

ckouba

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Mileage update: ~25k pounds, 6x6, 3.09's, Goodyear MVT's, big box on back (12' 4" high, 8' wide), kept speed at or below (most of the time) 65 mph

Portland, OR to Henderson Utah; 887 miles, 108.9 gal gives 8.13 mpg.

No issues with drivability.
 

Ronmar

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I came across someone who had a driveshaft failure(non eco hub LMTV) that split the tube. He was able to measure the tube thickness and he came up with .134” wall thickness. That is the heavier of the two specced wall thicknesses, found on the #6500 peak torque version…
 

Ronmar

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Tach goes in on Tuesday lol. Weight was 17400 at the last scale i was on. Rpm sounded like the same level as the high idle but it's just a swag.
A 17,400# truck should require 3,021# of thrust to crawl up a 10* slope. With the 70/30 torque split in 2nd gear, thats,~453# for each front tire and 1057# for each rear tire. So 1057# times 1.942’ tire radius = 2053ft/lb on each rear axle, so 4106 total out of the rear diff, divided by a 3.07 diff = ~1370ft/lb from the rear driveshaft to produce that much tire thrust and about 647ft/lb from the front DS. Thats ~2015ft/lb total from the transmission to make ~3000# of thrust. With a 4.18 total ratio in 2nd gear and considering gearbox losses, thats ~540ft/lb out of the torque converter into the coupled 2nd gear ratio.

Here is where the math gets a little muddier… Low-mid range torque converter multiplication is a little more difficult to estimate as the multiplication increases with the difference between input RPM and turbine/output RPM. And of course the magic of the TC is it will match output to load. The 275hp 3126 tune will deliver from ~400-800 ft/lb between 800 and 1450 RPM? and the torque it delivers will mix with that variable torque multiplication until it reaches stall or the turbine output shaft starts to rotate. But since the required torque of ~540 ft/lb falls in your available range of 0-~1600 ft/lb it obviously moves. If we know the RPM it takes to start moving on that 10* slope, we can estimate engine produced torque, and then estimate converter multiplication at that RPM difference when the truck just first starts to move. In the end it should only take about 1/3 of what you are capable of delivering into the gearbox…

You want to advance the pedal slowly, as it is a speed selector not a throttle. The pedal tells the governor or ECU what RPM to run at, and it in turn delivers fuel as it is “programmed” to achieve that commanded RPM… if it sees a big difference between actual and commanded RPM, it will throw a lot of fuel at it making it difficult to capture the RPM when it first starts to move on the slope… ideally you would want to have someone chock the wheels so you could start from setting against the chocks to take any possible brake resistance out of the picture. You should also be able to hover using the pedal to vary RPM, at a particular spot uphill from the the chocks or once your foot is off the brake after you start normally…
 
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MatthewWBailey

Father, Husband and Barn Hermit
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A 17,400# truck should require 3,021# of thrust to crawl up a 10* slope. With the 70/30 torque split in 2nd gear, thats,~453# for each front tire and 1057# for each rear tire. So 1057# times 1.942’ tire radius = 2053ft/lb on each rear axle, so 4106 total out of the rear diff, divided by a 3.07 diff = ~1370ft/lb from the rear driveshaft to produce that much tire thrust and about 647ft/lb from the front DS. Thats ~2015ft/lb total from the transmission to make ~3000# of thrust. With a 4.18 total ratio in 2nd gear and considering gearbox losses, thats ~540ft/lb out of the torque converter into the coupled 2nd gear ratio.

Here is where the math gets a little muddier… Low-mid range torque converter multiplication is a little more difficult to estimate as the multiplication increases with the difference between input RPM and turbine/output RPM. And of course the magic of the TC is it will match output to load. The 275hp 3126 tune will deliver from ~400-800 ft/lb between 800 and 1450 RPM? and the torque it delivers will mix with that variable torque multiplication until it reaches stall or the turbine output shaft starts to rotate. But since the required torque of ~540 ft/lb falls in your available range of 0-~1600 ft/lb it obviously moves. If we know the RPM it takes to start moving on that 10* slope, we can estimate engine produced torque, and then estimate converter multiplication at that RPM difference when the truck just first starts to move. In the end it should only take about 1/3 of what you are capable of delivering into the gearbox…

You want to advance the pedal slowly, as it is a speed selector not a throttle. The pedal tells the governor or ECU what RPM to run at, and it in turn delivers fuel as it is “programmed” to achieve that commanded RPM… if it sees a big difference between actual and commanded RPM, it will throw a lot of fuel at it making it difficult to capture the RPM when it first starts to move on the slope…
It barely starts moving at 1200rpm from a dead stop on the slope. I was barely on the throttle. It kept moving steadily, barely, until I got to the top and then started accel.

With the tach in there, it's easy to see your point in the last paragraph. I was driving up the hill back to the house which is a steady 6% grade at 44mph and 1600rpm. I just tried to hold 1600 and I could hear the engine getting louder as the slope increased to 7% on the last section bf my house.

if I hold pedal steady on flats, it's shifting at 1850.

also interesting from your calcs that "thrust" to get moving is almost exactly the vertical lift component of the weight at 17.3%, grade is 17.18%. Neat
 
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MatthewWBailey

Father, Husband and Barn Hermit
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You should also be able to hover using the pedal to vary RPM
It was holding at 1100rpm. I came off the brake and let it sit for a second at 1100. Had to get to 1200 to start creeping. But it did start accelerating at 1200 albeit slowly. So maybe 1150 is the threshold
 

Ronmar

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Cool info. but just neat to know, as it is difficult to pin down absolutes(actual torque produced and multiplication factor) mid power band without adding some fancy instrumentation:)

Where this becomes useful is when you reach a slope that takes you to the end, TC stall point near peak torque point. You can simulate this of course doing a stall test. stand on the brakes and depress the throttle pedal and see where it stalls at. If they did it right, it should be around 1450RPM for your 3126... Stall adds a lot of heat to the trans fluid, so a brief test is advised. if things are working right This should tell you if your engine is capable of producing peak torque...
 

MatthewWBailey

Father, Husband and Barn Hermit
Steel Soldiers Supporter
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891
93
Location
Mesa, Colorado
Cool info. but just neat to know, as it is difficult to pin down absolutes(actual torque produced and multiplication factor) mid power band without adding some fancy instrumentation:)

Where this becomes useful is when you reach a slope that takes you to the end, TC stall point near peak torque point. You can simulate this of course doing a stall test. stand on the brakes and depress the throttle pedal and see where it stalls at. If they did it right, it should be around 1450RPM for your 3126... Stall adds a lot of heat to the trans fluid, so a brief test is advised. if things are working right This should tell you if your engine is capable of producing peak torque...
Hmmm. I tried this on the back drive to my barn which is 7-8 degrees, with the brake held, at temp. Rpm did not "stall", kept going up to 2100+ and I backed off throttle. Truck was flexing, trying to go. Only a couple seconds elapsed. What does this mean?
 

MatthewWBailey

Father, Husband and Barn Hermit
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Mesa, Colorado
Any TCU codes?
I'll have to check tomorrow. I never owned a vehicle that didn't blow a trans during my ownership. So this would be par. Backhoe's at 6000 hrs and that trans is starting to go. Track loader is immune since it doesn't have one.

Items 3 and 4 above don't make sense since the truck drives fine especially downhill in 3 lockup. I'm thinking either 1 or 2. Worn clutch plates in there would follow from military maneuvers I'm guessing.
 
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