Thoughts on removing coil springs on A1R

[Third From Texas]

Yeah, the pandemic really crippled the custom shock world. The survivors are still recovering.

I'd start with a 3" body and talk to them about how best to do the can (likely going to be a remote), Maybe get your actual curb weight (CAT scales) for the front axel (that would be how I'd "fuzzy" it). Give them those weights and see what they recommend for valving/bypass. You're not really going to be racing it, so you have a lot more fudge factor to play with. And depending on how they valve them, you might be able to get away w/o a bypass.

But that's likely how I'd start the discussion with them. One of their techs should be able to sort it out. But I haven't dealt with King (or any of the others) in a lot of years. Sounds like you have the time, so that works in your favor. But it's quite the expense, obviously so you want it right for sure.

 

[GCecchetto]

Yeah, the pandemic really crippled the custom shock world. The survivors are still recovering.

I'd start with a 3" body and talk to them about how best to do the can (likely going to be a remote), Maybe get your actual curb weight (CAT scales) for the front axel (that would be how I'd "fuzzy" it). Give them those weights and see what they recommend for valving/bypass. You're not really going to be racing it, so you have a lot more fudge factor to play with. And depending on how they valve them, you might be able to get away w/o a bypass.

But that's likely how I'd start the discussion with them. One of their techs should be able to sort it out. But I haven't dealt with King (or any of the others) in a lot of years. Sounds like you have the time, so that works in your favor. But it's quite the expense, obviously so you want it right for sure.

Well, ultimately, I will have a habitat on the truck, so the current curb weight, which I know from having it on a scale, would be light compared to the finished build. Fortunately, a buddy of mine who is a fellow LMTV owner apparently knows the owner, or owners daughter at King. So hopping that connection can get me to the right person to work with.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

King will tell you they have no idea and that they will have to be custom made. A friend of mine has KING shocks on his M1088 and he also knows the owner who apparently arranged a team to custom build a set for him. Took them an entire day to manually machine all the required spacers and bushings. Apparently it was an unprofitable cluster. Not sure if they will want to do another one or not. Maybe they have forgotten the pain. I'm positive though that it will cost and absolute fortune.

Personally - I've driven a bunch of trucks with a pile of different "schemes" for the suspension. Everything from completely stock A1R's and A1P2's all the way to an M1088 that's has the one axle removed and the other slid back to be roughly between where the two rear tires would sit and the suspension entirely replaced with an air bag system off an air ride tractor.... Truck also had the cab air bridge AND air ride seats. The effect was nauseating and felt like a cheap water bed. The KING shocks on the M1088 overland setup felt fine - truck also had air bridge and air ride seats so also kinda "vague" and handles like a garbage scow.

I'm not changing mine. The spring delete is excellent and I don't really have any desire to mess with it further - can if be improved? Sure. Is it worth the cost? Nope. Maybe a low profile air-ride seat but y'all can have the air bridge problems and the expensive custom shocks just don't provide enough ROI. The cost is absurd for what I would estimate is about 10-20% improvement. It's honestly hard to tell the difference most of the time and it's fairly subjective. Deleting the springs is NOT subjective. That makes about a 500% improvement in ride quality and it's free. Several thousand $$$ for another 10% is chasing diminishing returns.

If I'm gonna plunk down that kinda money I'll spend 3-4x and find someone involved with the General Kinetics active suspension prototypes the Army didn't end up purchasing......

 

[IronhorseTX]

Spring was easy to cut with the cutoff wheel, just watch out when it lets go, you might fracture the cutting disc.
Requires 2 cuts to release pressure, second cut has almost no tension, then you can screw the springs together and a few whacks with a hammer you can take it all apart. Easy peasy. Threw on a coat a paint and polished up some corrosion on the shaft. Shock isn't gas charged - it will stay where you move it. Very easy to reinstall.

View attachment 934464

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Thank you so much for the pictures, detail and your explanation of this process. I’m gonna try to do this this weekend. Curious how violent is the spring when it lets go?

 

[Ronmar]

Thank you so much for the pictures, detail and your explanation of this process. I’m gonna try to do this this weekend. Curious how violent is the spring when it lets go?

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Thank you so much for the pictures, detail and your explanation of this process. I’m gonna try to do this this weekend. Curious how violent is the spring when it lets go?

Safety glasses..... Jock strap. Two condoms. 911 keyed in......

When they pop you WILL lose that death wheel. Where it goes.... Nobody knows.

 

[GCecchetto]

Okay, did the springechtomy on my A1R today. Total waste of time on at least one shock, it's totally seized up, which would account for my a pothole under the passenger side tire was like getting punched in the kidney. Drivers side I can compress and extend but it chatters when it moves, so maybe it's bad too. Or, maybe it's just speed sensitive valving. Haven't yet looked on the shocks for a part # and don't currently have access to my laptop that has the A1R TM's on it, but will figure out the part number and start searching.

Anyway, I'm either having to start the conversation with King now, or I need to find at least one A1R coilover at a reasonable price. If anyone knows where I can get one, please let me know. Thanks

 

[aw113sgte]

Okay, did the springechtomy on my A1R today. Total waste of time on at least one shock, it's totally seized up, which would account for my a pothole under the passenger side tire was like getting punched in the kidney. Drivers side I can compress and extend but it chatters when it moves, so maybe it's bad too. Or, maybe it's just speed sensitive valving. Haven't yet looked on the shocks for a part # and don't currently have access to my laptop that has the A1R TM's on it, but will figure out the part number and start searching.

Anyway, I'm either having to start the conversation with King now, or I need to find at least one A1R coilover at a reasonable price. If anyone knows where I can get one, please let me know. Thanks

Mine were smooth, no chatter. Very likely a bad shock.

 

[GCecchetto]

Mine were smooth, no chatter. Very likely a bad shock.

Well, I'm looking for two shocks then

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Put them back on. They do have speed sensitive valving and even the normal FMTV shocks will appear to "seize up" if you move them hard and fast.

Try them on the truck first before you condemn them.

I don't think you want to find another set of these. They are over $2k each. And basically unobtainable on the civilian side.

I would just find a set of stock pre-A1R style - which happen to be the same as the rear shocks on all the FMTV's from A0 through to A1P2. Wouldn't be hard to adapt and infinitely easier to find.

 

[GCecchetto]

Put them back on. They do have speed sensitive valving and even the normal FMTV shocks will appear to "seize up" if you move them hard and fast.

Try them on the truck first before you condemn them.

I don't think you want to find another set of these. They are over $2k each. And basically unobtainable on the civilian side.

I would just find a set of stock pre-A1R style - which happen to be the same as the rear shocks on all the FMTV's from A0 through to A1P2. Wouldn't be hard to adapt and infinitely easier to find.

The one that chatters maybe, the other one cannot be moved by hand. Even with the heavy end up and slamming the other end down onto a block of wood, it hardly moves. I'm sure the weight of the truck will move it, but it won't be a smooth ride.

I will be removing one of the rears to measure and will check the bolt sizes and what will need to be done to run them in the front. If memory serves me correctly, the rear bolts are smaller and the upper and lower are a different size.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

When installing brand new rear shocks on my truck I experienced the same thing with both the originals and the new ones. Once they lock out on you, you can't move them. But the truck can. You can't apply tons of force like the truck can. It seems like they are seized when they do that but they aren't. You just activated the valving. Once they bleed down and release you can move them slowly and carefully.

Again I would put them back and try them before you decide they are actually bad. I have yet to see any of these actually fail.

Their previous behavior over pot holes, etc is due to the springs I would wager.

 

[GCecchetto]

Was just looking at these. Extended length is correct, but the compressed length is much shorter than the A1R shock. These are just slightly under 21" compressed, the A1R shock is 24 1/8" compressed. I get that the front suspension of the A1R is pretty much the same as the earlier trucks, aside from the coilovers and larger towers to mount them, but I don't want to work anything beyond it's design parameters. These trucks already have enough borderline design functional issues, like the binding joints in the front end on tight turns when the center diff is locked.

 

[GCecchetto]

When installing brand new rear shocks on my truck I experienced the same thing with both the originals and the new ones. Once they lock out on you, you can't move them. But the truck can. You can't apply tons of force like the truck can. It seems like they are seized when they do that but they aren't. You just activated the valving. Once they bleed down and release you can move them slowly and carefully.

Again I would put them back and try them before you decide they are actually bad. I have yet to see any of these actually fail.

Their previous behavior over pot holes, etc is due to the springs I would wager.

Well, the one I can move will be an easy install, the other certainly more work. I may put them back in and drive it and then remove the one I suspect is seized and see if it frees up. The rod on the suspected bad is very dry compared to the other. the housing of the bad one is also much more rusted around the shaft end.

Anyway won't have time to mess with it until next weekend.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

If you let the suspension droop fully you should be able to install them. That's how I have done them with springs installed. If it's locked out shorter then block up the axle and let the truck down till the bolts will go in.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Was just looking at these. Extended length is correct, but the compressed length is much shorter than the A1R shock. These are just slightly under 21" compressed, the A1R shock is 24 1/8" compressed. I get that the front suspension of the A1R is pretty much the same as the earlier trucks, aside from the coilovers and larger towers to mount them, but I don't want to work anything beyond it's design parameters. These trucks already have enough borderline design functional issues, like the binding joints in the front end on tight turns when the center diff is locked.

So the truck won't fully compress them. That's not a bad thing. You don't want them to bottom out. I'm not seeing an issue.

 

[GCecchetto]

If you let the suspension droop fully you should be able to install them. That's how I have done them with springs installed. If it's locked out shorter then block up the axle and let the truck down till the bolts will go in.

Yes, not saying I don't know how to do it, just that it won't be as simple as the the one I can move to align the bolt holes. I don't see though how the one shock can behave so differently from the other and be okay.

 

[GCecchetto]

So the truck won't fully compress them. That's not a bad thing. You don't want them to bottom out. I'm not seeing an issue.

my concern is over compressing the suspension, although the rubber stop is there to prevent that so yea, not an issue.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Yes, not saying I don't know how to do it, just that it won't be as simple as the the one I can move to align the bolt holes. I don't see though how the one shock can behave so differently from the other and be okay.

They haven't been worked much due to the springs keeping them extended. Drive them a while without the springs. Mine came around even though one was a little notchy like you described. Didn't matter in practice. They sorted themselves out.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

my concern is over compressing the suspension, although the rubber stop is there to prevent that so yea, not an issue.

It can't. And no little puny sheet metal tube is going to stop it if it wanted to, it would turn that shock into a banana immediately if it bottomed it out. The shock isn't a suspension limiter and couldn't be even if it wanted to.