Looking at a 404

Another Ahab · Mar 12, 2015

PaFarmer said:
Greenjeepster, bring your off-road only HMMWV on a trailer down to Rausch Creek in PA. We are having our semi-annual rally next month 4/10-12. I'll follow your HMMWV anywhere you can go, then we can see if you can follow me. I nearly bought a titled HMMWV a year ago, I do like them, but they do not have nearly the off-road ability of a mog.

There it is:

-The Smackdown

greenjeepster · Mar 12, 2015

I typed "breakover angle", but was thinking rollover angle.

It is really apples and oranges and I am sorry that some are taking offence. Like I said before I am not disrespecting the mogs. And I know that the video was of a 406 diesel... that was my point... if the diesel couldn't do it the gasser sure as heck isn't gonna.

greenjeepster · Mar 12, 2015

When is the next semi-annual? I would love to come down and see what it can do, but I have to go through it first and likely will not be ready by the 11th. EUC might not even be approved by then.

PaFarmer · Mar 12, 2015

The rally threads are in the event section. We have spring and fall rallies. The next one is October. You are welcome to join this one with what ever you want to run. I'd be happy to drink beer and talk smack around the campfire with you. We usually have 20-30 vehicles, everything from 5 tons to Pinz, Mogs, deuces, CUCVs and civy trucks and jeeps. I wheel there monthly in jeeps or my crawler.

Mercunimog404 · Mar 12, 2015

greenjeepster said:
I typed "breakover angle", but was thinking rollover angle.

It is really apples and oranges and I am sorry that some are taking offence. Like I said before I am not disrespecting the mogs. And I know that the video was of a 406 diesel... that was my point... if the diesel couldn't do it the gasser sure as heck isn't gonna.

A Unimog is rated to side hill more than a hmmwv. Ive towed out lots of things with my 82hp 404.

tennmogger · Mar 13, 2015

Why is it there is always someone on SS who feels the need to run down all Unimogs, especially the SEE version? Go to any Unimog thread and you will see what I mean. Of course I am biased, but if I attacked Deuces or 5-tons with the same fervor I'd be banned from the site. Those two videos are silly examples, both obviously with totally inexperienced drivers doing dumb things.

Best advise about any particular truck comes from someone who has at least driven one, preferably from someone who has lived with one.

BTW, the 404 Unimog has the best speed capability of any standard equipped Unimog before the modern trucks like a U500. The gearing is good for low speed performance, and the gas engine rev's for high speed performance. The MB rating of top speed on a 404 is 59 mph, and a well tuned 404 will do better. The M-180 engine likes to rev in the 4500 to 5000 rpm range and sounds sweet doing it. A Diesel is typically governed at 2800 or less unless 'turned up'.

With low HP, performance in acceleration and on hills deteriorates quickly. Always drive a truck of the type you are considering buying. I find a 404's performance perfectly acceptable in unmodified condition and have seen too many Unimogs ruined by 'improvements'.

Bob

Another Ahab · Mar 13, 2015

tennmogger said:
Why is it there is always someone on SS who feels the need to run down all Unimogs, especially the SEE version? Go to any Unimog thread and you will see what I mean. Of course I am biased, but if I attacked Deuces or 5-tons with the same fervor I'd be banned from the site. Those two videos are silly examples, both obviously with totally inexperienced drivers doing dumb things.

Best advise about any particular truck comes from someone who has at least driven one, preferably from someone who has lived with one.

Bob

Maybe it's the level of threat.

If it didn't seem threatening, likely it wouldn't even be deemed worthy of effort (say if it were a two-door Chevy Chevette or something).

Not a Psych major, but the level of attack might be in direct relationship to the sense of fear. Don't let it get to you.

greenjeepster · Mar 13, 2015

I guess there are just a lot of "inexperienced" people operating unimogs and putting the videos on youtube then... there are literally 100s roll over forward, backwards sideways and stuck unimog videos... Or may be unimogs just are not cool unless the footage includes mayhem. Pretty much the only videos on there of them doing what they are rumored to be able to are the closed course professional driver/event videos.

I have driven a unimog, used to have one of the Case 406s... it made a great farm tractor for raking hay and spreading shat. Couldn't bale or mow with it though as it didn't have enough power to run the heavier equipment at a productive speed.

Mercunimog404 · Mar 13, 2015

greenjeepster said:
I guess there are just a lot of "inexperienced" people operating unimogs and putting the videos on youtube then... there are literally 100s roll over forward, backwards sideways and stuck unimog videos... Or may be unimogs just are not cool unless the footage includes mayhem. Pretty much the only videos on there of them doing what they are rumored to be able to are the closed course professional driver/event videos.

I have driven a unimog, used to have one of the Case 406s... it made a great farm tractor for raking hay and spreading shat. Couldn't bale or mow with it though as it didn't have enough power to run the heavier equipment at a productive speed.

Finding a video of a Unimog rolled over is your justification Huh? You can YouTube any vehicle rolled over. So I'm not sure what your point is. I'm telling you, a Unimog is not more tippy than a hmmwv. As I have had a Unimog for 8 years and have driven hmmwvs in the Army. You're truly missing the point of what a Unimog is. Go back to whatever it is you want to drive and leave this thread.

http://youtu.be/chCmbKp2bkY
http://youtu.be/bBI_bYBKWXs
http://youtu.be/xl9PxGF6jD4

IsaLandr · Mar 13, 2015

Yay! I get to be the stick in the mud, and a jerkoff at the same time! So, here's my half dollar's worth of interruption: You guys with your bickering are missing the whole point of this site, and compleatly destroying the spirit of what this community is supposed to be about. I am saddened and disappointed with this behaviour.

Instead of bashing each other, nit-picking, and/or criticising each other's vehicles, how about we stick to the positive reinforcement and support that this site, and this community, are reknowned for? Would you mind terribly if we stopped the antagonism?

The bottom line here is, every vehicle has its focus and its performance criteria. As long as we stay within the defined criteria, for the most part they will do what they were designed for. Some are better than others at various things, some are worse. No one vehicle is perfect at everything. It's okay to highlight both the positive and negative qualities of vehicles, but these personal attacks are compleatly inappropriate and really belong somewhere else.

I'm the first to admit I have never owned or driven a Unimog, and I have drooled over them for years and years because of their phenomenal offroad capability. But they do have their limitations, and there are trucks I would rather have, that cost a lot less to own and operate and maintain, and will still do what I need, both on and off road. I'm sure we all have these same kinds of preferences and opinions.

Mercunimog404 · Mar 13, 2015

IsaLandr said:
Yay! I get to be the stick in the mud, and a jerkoff at the same time! So, here's my half dollar's worth of interruption: You guys with your bickering are missing the whole point of this site, and compleatly destroying the spirit of what this community is supposed to be about. I am saddened and disappointed with this behaviour.

Instead of bashing each other, nit-picking, and/or criticising each other's vehicles, how about we stick to the positive reinforcement and support that this site, and this community, are reknowned for? Would you mind terribly if we stopped the antagonism?

The bottom line here is, every vehicle has its focus and its performance criteria. As long as we stay within the defined criteria, for the most part they will do what they were designed for. Some are better than others at various things, some are worse. No one vehicle is perfect at everything. It's okay to highlight both the positive and negative qualities of vehicles, but these personal attacks are compleatly inappropriate and really belong somewhere else.

I'm the first to admit I have never owned or driven a Unimog, and I have drooled over them for years and years because of their phenomenal offroad capability. But they do have their limitations, and there are trucks I would rather have, that cost a lot less to own and operate and maintain, and will still do what I need, both on and off road. I'm sure we all have these same kinds of preferences and opinions.

So you talk about stop bashing, then you bash? Confused. I'd be interested in hearing someone that has never owned or operated one can claim that they are expensive to own and operate. When people who actually own them will tell you otherwise.

IsaLandr · Mar 13, 2015

Mercunimog404 said:
So you talk about stop bashing, then you bash? Confused. I'd be interested in hearing someone that has never owned or operated one can claim that they are expensive to own and operate. When people who actually own them will tell you otherwise.

I don't see where anything I said is bashing anything or anyone, except bashing that specific behaviour. Please be so kind as to clarify where I personally attacked anyone in my post?

On the Unimog question, I never said anything about them being expensive. What I said, and please re-read it carefully, is that there are trucks that cost a lot less. There's a big difference between being expensive, and simple difference in cost. Maybe a Unimog is technically "inexpensive" in your opinion. With the exception of two, the trucks I've owned, both past and present, are *more* "inexpensive" in my opinion, and will do everything I could possibly require of them, both on and off-road.

Mercunimog404 · Mar 13, 2015

IsaLandr said:
I don't see where anything I said is bashing anything or anyone, except bashing that specific behaviour. Please be so kind as to clarify where I personally attacked anyone in my post?

On the Unimog question, I never said anything about them being expensive. What I said, and please re-read it carefully, is that there are trucks that cost a lot less. There's a big difference between being expensive, and simple difference in cost. Maybe a Unimog is technically "inexpensive" in your opinion. With the exception of two, the trucks I've owned, both past and present, are *more* "inexpensive" in my opinion, and will do everything I could possibly require of them, both on and off-road.

Bashing in the sense of implying they are so much more expensive. You said there are vehicles a lot less expensive to own operate and maintain. I'm asking you to back this up. I'm telling you that prices for parts on my mog is comparative to anything else out there.

IsaLandr · Mar 13, 2015

Mercunimog404 said:
Bashing in the sense of implying they are so much more expensive. You said there are vehicles a lot less expensive to own operate and maintain. I'm asking you to back this up. I'm telling you that prices for parts on my mog is comparative to anything else out there.

Okay. Here's a specific example. My 4x4 TravelAll cost $1200, fully running and operational, and the most expensive part on it to replace is tires. While still in use, it would do everything I could possibly want it to do, on or off-road, and anything it's too big for, I have a Scout to handle, which is even less expensive to maintain. In terms of practicality, my 4x4 Eddie Bauer Ranger costs very little yearly to maintain, and meets my needs exceptionally well. For larger stuff, there's our Centurion Classic C350 4x4, which may or may not be less expensive than a 'mog to maintain now that it has a Powerstroke upgrade, and for the really big stuff the M923 is right here. But I'm not about to claim that one is anything other than an absolute beast for support costs.

I've never seen a Unimog, of any kind, sell for less than about ten grand in similar operational condition around here, and if I'm understanding current trends, they are rising in value. From what I've seen on various forums about these trucks, the parts can start adding up quickly even for basic maintenance stuff. Especially with import costs rising. My personal dealings with the Mercedes Benz dealers have been less than stellar, they like to gouge around here. Of course, this is my experience with every dealer I've been to, of any brand, so this is not a shock.

Now, maybe I'm wrong and things have changed in the not too distant past and costs have dropped significantly for Mercedes Benz parts, but that isn't my direct experience. I would be delighted if this were the case, and happy to admit that I am mistaken. However, I have not personally witnessed this.

Mercunimog404 · Mar 13, 2015

IsaLandr said:
Okay. Here's a specific example. My 4x4 TravelAll cost $1200, fully running and operational, and the most expensive part on it to replace is tires. While still in use, it would do everything I could possibly want it to do, on or off-road, and anything it's too big for, I have a Scout to handle, which is even less expensive to maintain. In terms of practicality, my 4x4 Eddie Bauer Ranger costs very little yearly to maintain, and meets my needs exceptionally well. For larger stuff, there's our Centurion Classic C350 4x4, which may or may not be less expensive than a 'mog to maintain now that it has a Powerstroke upgrade, and for the really big stuff the M923 is right here. But I'm not about to claim that one is anything other than an absolute beast for support costs.

I've never seen a Unimog, of any kind, sell for less than about ten grand in similar operational condition around here, and if I'm understanding current trends, they are rising in value. From what I've seen on various forums about these trucks, the parts can start adding up quickly even for basic maintenance stuff. Especially with import costs rising. My personal dealings with the Mercedes Benz dealers have been less than stellar, they like to gouge around here. Of course, this is my experience with every dealer I've been to, of any brand, so this is not a shock.

Now, maybe I'm wrong and things have changed in the not too distant past and costs have dropped significantly for Mercedes Benz parts, but that isn't my direct experience. I would be delighted if this were the case, and happy to admit that I am mistaken. However, I have not personally witnessed this.

I purchased mine for 6300 dollars. I don't know anyone who purchase parts from mercedes. Although they will support it in a pinch. There are plenty of online suppliers out there that sell parts for them. I'm Curious how much it would be to rebuild your ih motors. They sure are not cheap by any means.

IsaLandr · Mar 13, 2015

And, since this makes for a good specific example, I'll use the water pump. I just replaced the water pump on the Powerstroke in our Centurion. The pump cost $150 from O'Reilly's with a limited lifetime warranty, and except for the nightmare of getting the fan clutch off, was a simple replacement, it didn't even require me to take out the radiator. The current list price for a 'mog 404 water pump, since that's the vehicle currently under discussion, is $310 NOS, and my understanding is that there is a lot of work involved in replacing it, though, again, I would be delighted to be wrong on that. I see listings for "refurbished" pumps for around $200. I can get a brand new lifetime warranty water pump for $180 from any NAPA in the US, and never worry about it again.

The water pump on every one of my IHC trucks, I have five, at NAPA currently runs anywhere from about $70 to $100, new. I can keep one spare and it will fit all five trucks, and is even simpler than the Powerstroke to replace, takes maybe 20 minutes start to finish, and the only thing I have to take off is the belts, though taking the fan off does make it more convenient.

Mercunimog404 · Mar 13, 2015

IsaLandr said:
And, since this makes for a good specific example, I'll use the water pump. I just replaced the water pump on the Powerstroke in our Centurion. The pump cost $150 from O'Reilly's with a limited lifetime warranty, and except for the nightmare of getting the fan clutch off, was a simple replacement, it didn't even require me to take out the radiator. The current list price for a 'mog 404 water pump, since that's the vehicle currently under discussion, is $310 NOS, and my understanding is that there is a lot of work involved in replacing it, though, again, I would be delighted to be wrong on that. I see listings for "refurbished" pumps for around $200. I can get a brand new lifetime warranty water pump for $180 from any NAPA in the US, and never worry about it again.

The water pump on every one of my IHC trucks, I have five, at NAPA currently runs anywhere from about $70 to $100, new. I can keep one spare and it will fit all five trucks, and is even simpler than the Powerstroke to replace, takes maybe 20 minutes start to finish, and the only thing I have to take off is the belts, though taking the fan off does make it more convenient.

I can rebuild a water pump for less than half of that. On top of it. My water pump is the original. 53 years old and its not leaking at all.

IsaLandr · Mar 13, 2015

Mercunimog404 said:
I purchased mine for 6300 dollars. I don't know anyone who purchase parts from mercedes. Although they will support it in a pinch. There are plenty of online suppliers out there that sell parts for them. I'm Curious how much it would be to rebuild your ih motors. They sure are not cheap by any means.

You've got me there. The rebuild kit on an SV engine is about $2500 and doesn't include everything you need to do the compleat job, which is stupid in my opinion. Fortunately, I've never had to do it. None of my SV engines has ever given me a reason to do more than basic maintenance, except of course I've replaced the water pump twice, one each on two trucks. I think the most expensive thing I've ever had to do was replace the clutch, and that was about $200 for a new pressure plate, clutch disc, and throwout bearing, from the local CarQuest.

We went through the Black Diamond 220 in my '60 for about $300 in 1977, at 1.2 million miles, and that's no joke, no exaggeration. It had 1.2 MILLION miles on it, no rebuilds, just regular weekly maintenance every Sunday from 1960 to 1970. When we opened the engine up, there was very little wear on the cylinders, we didn't have to rehone or anything. New rings, valve job, and back together it went. Cam was fine, crank was fine, everything was in great shape. That engine had about 1.7 million on it when I took it out and replaced it with an SV304 in 1990.

Mercunimog404 · Mar 13, 2015

IsaLandr said:
You've got me there. The rebuild kit on an SV engine is about $2500 and doesn't include everything you need to do the compleat job, which is stupid in my opinion. Fortunately, I've never had to do it. None of my SV engines has ever given me a reason to do more than basic maintenance, except of course I've replaced the water pump twice, one each on two trucks. I think the most expensive thing I've ever had to do was replace the clutch, and that was about $200 for a new pressure plate, clutch disc, and throwout bearing, from the local CarQuest.

We went through the Black Diamond 220 in my '60 for about $300 in 1977, at 1.2 million miles, and that's no joke, no exaggeration. It had 1.2 MILLION miles on it, no rebuilds, just regular weekly maintenance every Sunday from 1960 to 1970. When we opened the engine up, there was very little wear on the cylinders, we didn't have to rehone or anything. New rings, valve job, and back together it went. Cam was fine, crank was fine, everything was in great shape. That engine had about 1.7 million on it when I took it out and replaced it with an SV304 in 1990.

Also ih engines are tough. They don't wear out fast.

IsaLandr · Mar 13, 2015

Mercunimog404 said:
Also ih engines are tough. They don't wear out fast.

If you take care of them, they don't wear out at all. I've seen DT466 engines with over 2 million, no rebuilds, and still going strong. If there's one thing that company got right, it's their engines.

I would dare say, Benz isn't far behind. There is some absolutely fantastic engineering in MB engines. Those five cylinder diesels are phenomenal.

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