#2 Injector line was leaking at Hydraulic Head

jbayer · Aug 25, 2015

jasonjc said:
.250-.0625=.1875/2=.09375

I rounded up. I kinda thought the .00025" to be insignificant.

jbayer · Aug 25, 2015

I guess it is so. I would not thought them to have that thick of a wall.
Thanks frank

skinnyR1 · Aug 25, 2015

rustystud said:
Your right to a point. Technically fluids do not compress. In reality they do a little. If you have a closed line 4ft long and a line 2ft long and a metered amount of pressurized fluid injected into them will the end pressure be the same ? In a perfect world the answer would be yes. In reality there will be a slight loose of pressure in the longer line. Now add to the fact that at the end of the line is a metered orifice with a set spring pressure that must be overcome. Now we must look at the time factor. How long does it take the fluid to travel the different lengths of line ? Since the engine timing of a diesel corresponds with the injection and then firing of the fuel. So if it takes less time to travel the distance of the 2ft line what will happen to our engine timing ? We will get an early firing cylinder with a slightly higher charge of fuel, which in turn will cause loss of power and added stress to the engine. So the answer to your question is, if you take 1/2" of one line then you must take 1/2" off all the lines.
After thinking about this for a few minutes I reconsidered my last comment. If our lines are on average 3ft long then 1/2" is just a small percentage of that. So I don't think it will be much of a factor in the engine timing.

I've posted my findings related to just replacing the bite fitting multiple times here on the forum, but is is regularly dismissed as an option by most people. Why, I'm not really sure. Seems people want to just replace the lines at what, $75 vs. using a $1 fitting. To each his own, I suppose. I'm familiar with pressure loss over long lengths of line, but like you said, it is more than likely irrelevant here.

And with these trucks being what they are, a 1/4" which is what i took off the lines, isn't going to make a bit of difference as far as I can tell. My calibrated seat of the pants dyno. These aren't formula one race cars. Further, if one fitting is bad, as in my own experience, the others aren't far behind it in failure. Might as well cut the tubes change all the fittings, and then you have the same length lines again, making this all a mute point and you know there won't be any IP leaks like this.

Floridianson · Aug 25, 2015

Thanks Rusty I am a good little grease monkey but a bad teacher so thanks for the explain. I never said the parker would not work and said what I would do myself. I thought they were welded as I have never had a problem with injector lines or had to deal with them on MV's. So got me clear and thinking about them. After looking at them I believed that the fitting was done on a machine and it seems like Frank8003 believes so too. It is a very cool fitting at it does seal but also spins on it's self. Very cool. I would think that Parker fittings were not yet being used around the 70's but they have come along way and the new stuff works.
As to the length. I am not the sharpest tool around and hate math so you guys with the figures my hat is off too you.
As I said I will go with new or used lines other than trying to fix and fight with the connections on the head and injector.
Someone said these fittings are just the same as the copper cheap compression stuff from Home Depot. I disagree.
Does the parker new fittings rotate on the line like the old ones do/did? Why do they need to spin free or is it to help with the shock load/ vibration? Tanks

Skinny don't take it personal that some don't jump on your train but I did read/google it and the most top answer on the board was equal length. So as you said do one do them all would be one way to go I believe.

Just stared to think again if you cut the lines what would it take to get the slow taper in the end like the stock end is. I don't have a machine shop or a proper jig to hold the line to replace the taper in the end?

TB58 · Aug 25, 2015

Mine cracked about 1 1/4" from the end. My two concerns with a repair were re bending the line to make up for the lost length, and if it experienced enough vibration at one end to completely sever the line, what kind of shape was the other end in. Also The places I could get parts to repair the line were running pretty much the same hours as where I got a replacement.

Floridianson · Aug 25, 2015

What you still have not got it fixed. I can take off a used line and over night it too you.

TB58 · Aug 25, 2015

No, i am all fixed up and in Ft Collins Co. That was my reasoning for replacing rather than repairing.

Floridianson · Aug 25, 2015

skinnyR1 said:
I've posted my findings related to just replacing the bite fitting multiple times here on the forum, but is is regularly dismissed as an option by most people. Why, I'm not really sure.

Could it be because it is your option. In post 33 you said cutting off one inch would not make a difference. I don't know if 1/4'' would but one inch would tells me something about your options.

skinnyR1 · Aug 25, 2015

Look, these trucks are not precision machines. If that's how you view it or you feel the need then by all means change the line. I have no issue there, everyone is entitled to their opinions. heck, i swapped in a new motor in leui of fixing a cracked block issue. But there is another option for these lines and that is what I offered. No more no less, your mileage may vary.

How many cases are there where people have run these trucks for thousands of miles with cracked heads, blocks, holes in the Pistons etc. They still run, and in many cases still pretty good. You've been on the forum long enough to see. In my opinion, a 1/4 inch, in which I took off a couple lines, isn't gonna make a lick of difference. I threw out the inch figure as a number only, nothing behind that really. In theory positive displacement means when the lines are full they will be pushing the same fluid amount no matter the line length. The variable here, which I can't calculate as its over my pay grade, relates to viscosity and friction of the fluid on the line walls. In my opinion irrelevant with these trucks. 1/4 or an inch.

welldigger · Aug 25, 2015

skinnyR1 said:
I've posted my findings related to just replacing the bite fitting multiple times here on the forum, but is is regularly dismissed as an option by most people. Why, I'm not really sure. Seems people want to just replace the lines at what, $75 vs. using a $1 fitting. To each his own, I suppose. I'm familiar with pressure loss over long lengths of line, but like you said, it is more than likely irrelevant here.

And with these trucks being what they are, a 1/4" which is what i took off the lines, isn't going to make a bit of difference as far as I can tell. My calibrated seat of the pants dyno. These aren't formula one race cars. Further, if one fitting is bad, as in my own experience, the others aren't far behind it in failure. Might as well cut the tubes change all the fittings, and then you have the same length lines again, making this all a mute point and you know there won't be any IP leaks like this.

If your injector lines were as rough as mine were you would understand.

On a side note the injector lines I bought were made from a way tougher steel tubing than the old ones. I busted 3 really good tubing benders trying to adjust the lines. They didn't line up perfectly.

rustystud · Aug 26, 2015

welldigger said:
If your injector lines were as rough as mine were you would understand.

On a side note the injector lines I bought were made from a way tougher steel tubing than the old ones. I busted 3 really good tubing benders trying to adjust the lines. They didn't line up perfectly.

The injection lines are made from a high grade alloy steel. They will flex (slightly) and still hold very high surging pressures. You can't just go to Home Depot and pick them up. So if one of mine cracks or breaks at the end I will replace it. Now if I was on the road somewhere I would try and replace the ferrule and get out of there. I plan on buying some "Parker Bite Ferrules" to keep on the truck just in case.
Jake, where did you buy new lines from ? All I ever heard of was NOS which is still the OLD lines not the new stuff used in todays trucks.

Floridianson · Aug 26, 2015

How and what would you use to cut the old off, taper the end and install when on the road?
I might not be the smartest man but Fact is timing is everything in life and on any gas or diesel motor. Not enough and it does not perform as well as it should. To much and bad things happen. Fact if every cylinder has the correct timing and mix they perform. With todays electric injection on gas motors we can control every cylinder duration and volume and produce the same temps in every cylinder and make them all run the same. If I was going on a cross country trip on a time table maybe I would worry and maybe carry 6 NOS lines but for the 100 miles I might be from home base or local driving I will get it home or go get my 816 and tow it home.
Now 2% was said what 1/4'' might be but can anyone tell me how many degrees that might be if any.
One inch or half inch or maybe a quarter inch the fact is it controls timing.

welldigger · Aug 26, 2015

rustystud said:
The injection lines are made from a high grade alloy steel. They will flex (slightly) and still hold very high surging pressures. You can't just go to Home Depot and pick them up. So if one of mine cracks or breaks at the end I will replace it. Now if I was on the road somewhere I would try and replace the ferrule and get out of there. I plan on buying some "Parker Bite Ferrules" to keep on the truck just in case.
Jake, where did you buy new lines from ? All I ever heard of was NOS which is still the OLD lines not the new stuff used in todays trucks.

I got mine from white owl. They were new manufacture. I liked the new lines. They were very nice quality. Just some of the bends weren't perfect. They were very close though. But the tubing they were made of was very strong.

I know injector lines are tough steel to begin with but I could still bend them. The new ones were much more difficult to tweek.

daytonatrbo · Aug 26, 2015

Floridianson said:
How and what would you use to cut the old off, taper the end and install when on the road?
I might not be the smartest man but Fact is timing is everything in life and on any gas or diesel motor. Not enough and it does not perform as well as it should. To much and bad things happen. Fact if every cylinder has the correct timing and mix they perform. With todays electric injection on gas motors we can control every cylinder duration and volume and produce the same temps in every cylinder and make them all run the same. If I was going on a cross country trip on a time table maybe I would worry and maybe carry 6 NOS lines but for the 100 miles I might be from home base or local driving I will get it home or go get my 816 and tow it home.
Now 2% was said what 1/4'' might be but can anyone tell me how many degrees that might be if any.
One inch or half inch or maybe a quarter inch the fact is it controls timing.

The point was a 2% change in length won't affect timing. The IP is still sending pulses of fuel in the correct time. This isn't direct current. It's more akin to alternating current. The fuel that the IP shoots out on a given injection event isn't all going into the engine. It is displacing an equal amount of fuel at the far end of the line. When you change the line by 2% you change the timing and fuel delivery by even less than that. The point many are trying to make is that there is not enough loss in precision of the fuel injection to have any measurable affect on the motor performance.

Run a compression test on an old multifuel engine and show me one where the compression from the lowest cylinder to the highest doesn't vary by more than 2%. I really doubt you will find one. Even on a fresh rebuild there is variance all over the engine. Introducing an immeasurable variance to the fuel injection is not going to have a negative effect.

frank8003 · Aug 26, 2015

Floridianson said:
............... if you cut the lines what would it take to get the slow taper in the end like the stock end is. I don't have a machine shop or a proper jig to hold the line to replace the taper in the end?

Put in the vise and chuck up a #2 combined drill and countersink (#2 centerdrill) and use cutting oil and touch it a bit. A 1/4" drill motor spins it fast enough. That does a nice job.

bonedoc · Aug 26, 2015

welldigger said:
I got mine from white owl. They were new manufacture. I liked the new lines. They were very nice quality. Just some of the bends weren't perfect. They were very close though. But the tubing they were made of was very strong.

I know injector lines are tough steel to begin with but I could still bend them. The new ones were much more difficult to tweek.[/QU

How difficult are they to change? I've been replacing my airlines and brake lines and have looked at mine and thought....hmmm, they are looking pretty ratty. May be time....lol. Anything else I need to replace while I'm there? The previous owner of my truck replaced the HH O-rings and cleaned and re-calibrated the injectors just a couple years ago.

Thanks

gimpyrobb · Aug 26, 2015

If they aren't broke, I wouldn't mess with it.

welldigger · Aug 26, 2015

Ya I'm with gimpy. If your injector lines aren't leaking then I'd leave them alone. It can become a pain to get the lines tweeked so they don't leak.

bonedoc · Aug 26, 2015

K, thanks for the heads up. What does a new set of injector lines run? Wondering if I should put it on my "to get when I can" list so I have them when needed.

welldigger · Aug 26, 2015

bonedoc said:
K, thanks for the heads up. What does a new set of injector lines run? Wondering if I should put it on my "to get when I can" list so I have them when needed.

If I remember correctly white owl was just under $50 per line. Csi truck parts was in that ball park also.

#2 Injector line was leaking at Hydraulic Head

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