Civilian wheel cylinders

See the block on post 18 with the banjo bolt? Are you replacing the (banjo) tube connections and are you putting on new tube also? How about the front, will you reuse the banjo bolt and block?

tobyS said:

Yea clinto...and a good price too. I like the NAPA paint job they show on their website, gloss black, but does it come that way?

Click to expand...

I ordered a new 4419 wheel cylinder several days ago, and when it arrived I was surprised to see made in china on the box. Toby, I also liked the way the part looked on the NAPA website, gloss black with made in USA. The first picture is how the wheel cylinder looks out of the box, no black paint, and A-R17L5 etched on the metal. Second picture is a close up of Made in China. The third picture is the 45 wheel cylinder kit I ordered, still made in USA. Fourth picture is the wheel cylinder disassembled, looks the same as before. Maybe I'm missing something. I don't remember NAPA 4419 wheel cylinders being manufactured in china. The NAPA website shows a gloss black wheel cylinder with USA cast in the metal. When did this change??

sgms18 said:

Well I just ordered 6 of the UP4419 from the local NAPA and all new hoses. Hope that keeps me sealed up for a few years. The Raybestos from Summit was a little cheaper but the NAPA is lifetime warranty.

Click to expand...

sgms18. Please let us know how your wheel cylinders look when they arrive, and country of origin. I hope the hoses you ordered aren't made in china. Thx.

Tracer said:

View attachment 735375View attachment 735376View attachment 735377View attachment 735378 I ordered a new 4419 wheel cylinder several days ago, and when it arrived I was surprised to see made in china on the box. Toby, I also liked the way the part looked on the NAPA website, gloss black with made in USA. The first picture is how the wheel cylinder looks out of the box, no black paint, and A-R17L5 etched on the metal. Second picture is a close up of Made in China. The third picture is the 45 wheel cylinder kit I ordered, still made in USA. Fourth picture is the wheel cylinder disassembled, looks the same as before. Maybe I'm missing something. I don't remember NAPA 4419 wheel cylinders being manufactured in china. The NAPA website shows a gloss black wheel cylinder with USA cast in the metal. When did this change??

Click to expand...

Read carefully. Does not say MADE IN THE USA.
ASSEMBLED in USA does not always mean MADE in the USA. Assembled here with China made parts. Or from any other country for that matter.

A note on the spring. All of mine were in Rockwell boxes but I doubt they were original, since there is one with Wagner and USA cast in, 2 that have the 3087 number cast in and 3 that have no country marking (but a number I don't recognize). More import, one of them had the light spring and no end caps, that I would not have known if I had not taken them all apart, since it was packaged and on the outside of the cylinder looked just like the others.

No matter where you think they were made and what they look like, I recommend taking them apart and confirming what spring they have in them and that the cylinder is ready. The linear straight spring above seems to come in a lighter version with no end caps and a heavier version with the caps....do not use the lighter version with no end caps.

I have some super fine emery cloth for a once through of the bore, but was glad to have no internal rust. They are easy to disassemble and reassemble and fresh lube is a good thing (+ paint).

After going through mine (6)...now I may go to the 1 1/2" (not use the 1 3/8" piston model since the A3 has a 1 1/2" on the front). That's Murphy's law in action. Parts I thought were ready to go were neither ready nor at least on the front, the correct ones.

Tracer said:

sgms18. Please let us know how your wheel cylinders look when they arrive, and country of origin. I hope the hoses you ordered aren't made in china. Thx.

Click to expand...

I will. I hope the hoses aren't Chinese too. They are the ones from Big Mikes.

Tracer said:

View attachment 735375View attachment 735376View attachment 735377View attachment 735378 I ordered a new 4419 wheel cylinder several days ago, and when it arrived I was surprised to see made in china on the box. Toby, I also liked the way the part looked on the NAPA website, gloss black with made in USA. The first picture is how the wheel cylinder looks out of the box, no black paint, and A-R17L5 etched on the metal. Second picture is a close up of Made in China. The third picture is the 45 wheel cylinder kit I ordered, still made in USA. Fourth picture is the wheel cylinder disassembled, looks the same as before. Maybe I'm missing something. I don't remember NAPA 4419 wheel cylinders being manufactured in china. The NAPA website shows a gloss black wheel cylinder with USA cast in the metal. When did this change??

Click to expand...

I have not had mine (truck brakes) apart yet. What keeps the pin centered in the (flat) piston cup?

Problem.....Please see post #8 and look at the second photo. The cups have a center for the pin to fit into and not one of the piston cups on my #3087 have that pin centering feature...they are just flat inside.

Hmm.... that could potentially be a problem. Id be willing to bet none of the current production NAPA, Wagner, Raybestos, Dorman ect have that centering divot. I wonder if the "good" cups can be bought anywhere & put in our new wheel cylinders. Good eye, i didn't even notice that.

jbayer said:

Read carefully. Does not say MADE IN THE USA.
ASSEMBLED in USA does not always mean MADE in the USA. Assembled here with China made parts. Or from any other country for that matter.

Click to expand...

I was surprised. I didn't think we even assembled things here anymore.

Tracer said:

I was surprised. I didn't think we even assembled things here anymore.

Click to expand...

In the past it was a way around tariffs to assemble them here.

A. The 4419s were made in the USA forever. At some point in the last 2-5 years (I just can't remember, sorry), I noticed the change to China.

B. It's the Horror Freight phenomena. Businesses are greedy, no doubt but consumers are cheapskates.

C. I've probably installed at least a hundred of the Chinese 4419s and none have leaked or failed.

D. All the 4419s I've bought have had the good cup that centers the pushrod.

E. As someone above said, it is a good idea to break each one down, because at some point, I'll bet they start putting the cheaper springs in them.

tobyS said:

If you haven't seen it yet, here is an excellent reference;

https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showt...LINE-REFERENCE-GUIDE-(Sizes-lengths-fittings)

I learned my A3 has 1 1/2" diameter front cylinders, not 1 3/8" like the A1 or A2. Hmmm....wonder if the 1 1/2 would work on the A1 or 2 if you wanted more front force (my guess is they did it because of the super singles on the A3).

For reference, the 1 1/2" Raybestos and Wagner number is WC37317. Wonder if anyone has put the larger cylinder on the A1 or A2 when they went to larger tires?

I may consider changing to the 1 1/2" all the way around since I'm going 4x4 (I wouldn't on a 6x6 as it may require more volume of oil that the MC cannot handle) but by eliminating 2 of the 6, would seem to be about right on my A3.

Click to expand...

This other thread may answer some of your questions.


BTW and while you are at it: Please take a caliper and measure the length of the link pins from your A3's front WC... this post... (inquiring minds want to know)

clinto said:

A. The 4419s were made in the USA forever. At some point in the last 2-5 years (I just can't remember, sorry), I noticed the change to China.

B. It's the Horror Freight phenomena. Businesses are greedy, no doubt but consumers are cheapskates.

C. I've probably installed at least a hundred of the Chinese 4419s and none have leaked or failed.

D. All the 4419s I've bought have had the good cup that centers the pushrod.

E. As someone above said, it is a good idea to break each one down, because at some point, I'll bet they start putting the cheaper springs in them.

Click to expand...

I've had some problems with Chinese parts in the past (New Star), especially brake shoes. So if I see made in china...………….

clinto said:

C. I've probably installed at least a hundred of the Chinese 4419s and none have leaked or failed.

D. All the 4419s I've bought have had the good cup that centers the pushrod.

E. As someone above said, it is a good idea to break each one down, because at some point, I'll bet they start putting the cheaper springs in them.

Click to expand...

Well that makes me feel a little better. It's a shame that even our brake parts that our lives & the lives of those around us depend on have gone to China. It's even worse that they try to sneak it in on us & hope we don't notice.

Tracer said:

I've had some problems with Chinese parts in the past (New Star), especially brake shoes. So if I see made in china...………….

Click to expand...

Well, most everything Newstar sells is trash. This is probably more of a reflection on Newstar's mgmt. decisions than on the Chinese their outsourcing the actual manufacturing to.

I agree that the Chinese have/had a spotty reputation. A friend in manufacturing once told me "The Chinese are really good at replicating 75% of the quality at 40% of the price". I think that's a pretty valid way of saying it.

I think it's fair to say that now in 2018, the Chinese have upped their game. I suspect, unlike 30 years ago, it's not safe to think "Made in China = junk".

When Japan began building their manufacturing industry it was criticized a lot (older readers will certainly remember the sorry reputation Japanese cars had in the sixties and seventies). But eventually they got better. China is following the same path.

At this point, I think you have to judge items made in China on a case-by-case basis. I've had good luck with the Chinese 4419s, YMMV.

I just got off the phone with Wagner technical. The 3087 number that many of us have used is a casting number and is not the part number. I have seen it referred to in multiple posts but he says that casting could be used in 4 different parts with differing characteristics, one of which is the inverted flare piston to center the rod. Mine would have a different part number, even with casting 3087 it does not have the correct rod connection.

He confirmed that WC 4419 is the flared inverted cup version of the 1 3/8" diameter and that WC-746 is the 1 1/2" size with the inverted flare V cup.

So I believe you will probably have just what you need sgms18 by ordering the WC 4419 number.

Myself...I learned that a spare part I thought I had would be perfect and found out otherwise. I'm going to go to 1 1/2" now.

Maybe someone has rusted bodies that has the correct piston...I'll be putting 6 of the bodies, (painted, cleaned and lightly de-glazed) in the classified.

Yes, I remember Japanese transistor radios back in the 60s. Sometimes they didn't work when new out of the box, and if they did work you only got 2 or 3 stations.

tobyS said:

I just got off the phone with Wagner technical. The 3087 number that many of us have used is a casting number and is not the part number. I have seen it referred to in multiple posts but he says that casting could be used in 4 different parts with differing characteristics, one of which is the inverted flare piston to center the rod. Mine would have a different part number, even with casting 3087 it does not have the correct rod connection.

He confirmed that WC 4419 is the flared inverted cup version of the 1 3/8" diameter and that WC-746 is the 1 1/2" size with the inverted flare V cup.

So I believe you will probably have just what you need sgms18 by ordering the WC 4419 number.

Myself...I learned that a spare part I thought I had would be perfect and found out otherwise. I'm going to go to 1 1/2" now.

Maybe someone has rusted bodies that has the correct piston...I'll be putting 6 of the bodies, (painted, cleaned and lightly de-glazed) in the classified.

Click to expand...

Thanks tobyS. I have a couple of these Wagner Lockheed wheel cylinders that I picked up recently. The boxes are old and yellow and the dust boots are stiff, but the metal is rust free. I planned on rebuilding them with the NAPA 45 kit, but the number FD3087 didn't match the number 4419 on the box and that puzzled me. Now I know...……..Thanks again.

tobyS said:

I just got off the phone with Wagner technical. The 3087 number that many of us have used is a casting number and is not the part number. I have seen it referred to in multiple posts but he says that casting could be used in 4 different parts with differing characteristics, one of which is the inverted flare piston to center the rod. Mine would have a different part number, even with casting 3087 it does not have the correct rod connection.

He confirmed that WC 4419 is the flared inverted cup version of the 1 3/8" diameter and that WC-746 is the 1 1/2" size with the inverted flare V cup.

So I believe you will probably have just what you need sgms18 by ordering the WC 4419 number.

Myself...I learned that a spare part I thought I had would be perfect and found out otherwise. I'm going to go to 1 1/2" now.

Maybe someone has rusted bodies that has the correct piston...I'll be putting 6 of the bodies, (painted, cleaned and lightly de-glazed) in the classified.

Click to expand...

Ok, i stand corrected. I figured that the cups w/no centering divot was just another way of cutting corners. Im glad I was wrong.