NEEWB to Deuces. Looking to get first Deuce (need sage advice)

On the a-3 the cat engine is fairly reliable, the transmissions however do not like to be abused and are hard to get parts for.

snowtrac nome said:

I have 13 k of dirt road mileage on my lmtv, with only an oil change, a couple door handles ,and an cab air bag replacement. I spent 6 k on it, its a daily driver, and a work truck, other than the climb to get in to it, the worst part about it is the price of a weekly fill up.

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There you go. If you can get 13K out of a truck off road in ALASKA!, I should be able to get 10K of paved road miles in So. Cal. But you might be the exception. Other posts here seem to cast doubt on getting anything near that without major $ and work. I'm just trying to get a sense of it.

snowtrac nome said:

On the a-3 the cat engine is fairly reliable, the transmissions however do not like to be abused and are hard to get parts for.

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How do you "abuse" an automatic transmission? Can't exactly strip gears, ride the clutch or shift it from first to reverse like a stick.

djandj said:

Well THAT"S my question. Yes, I had to virtually REBUILD my little Willys. I CAN'T do that with a deuce, but that's the question, how often do they break and require MAJOR repairs. LOTS of posts here about tearing apart the transmissions, pumps, brake systems etc. Quite a bit difference between squirting up the zerks and changing oil every year, replacing bulbs etc. and tearing apart a huge cat. engine.

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My LMTV blew the fan clutch and took out the radiator. Fan clutch design was extremely flawed and should have been replaced by the military but wasn't. I also lost a rear brake canister due to age/stuck diaphragm. These 2 items didn't show up on normal maintenance but still happened. No matter what you're looking at an aged vehicle that likely was driven hard by people who had no vested interest in treating it like it was their own and have to pay for damage from the way it was driven (I know I didn't care when I drove stuff in the Army other than I didn't want to replace a track if I threw one off my tank). "Maintained" in the 80s meant you spent a couple days a week in the motorpool doing PMCS but that was all superficial. Things were only really torn down if they were seriously broken. Different posts or different units on the same post might have done things differently but you're just as likely to get one from a unit like mine (this was the same between Ft Polk and Ft Lewis and then between Active and Guard units) so don't live under the illusion that the military was perfect in the way they took care of these trucks.

djandj said:

There you go. If you can get 13K out of a truck off road in ALASKA!, I should be able to get 10K of paved road miles in So. Cal. But you might be the exception. Other posts here seem to cast doubt on getting anything near that without major $ and work. I'm just trying to get a sense of it.

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10k "trouble free miles" and "no major projects" is kinda relative to what you're used to... For example, if your conscientious about caring for the truck, you'll probably want to pack the hubs during that time. Hub packing is a regular maintenance item. Some guys will brag that they can knock out all 6 in a day, duals 'n' all, and to them it's no big deal. But, I can realistically see it taking someone a full 3 days (or more) in a less-than-condusive environment, going at a careful pace so as not to get it wrong the first time, trying to figure out the process and what tools are best for the job along the way. And that would be considered far more laborious than a "typical maintenance" item on your little willy's, and would be considered a "major project" by many folks. And, given the associated quantities of oil, coolant, grease, etc. a deuce can redefine your notion of what a "big mess" truly is. With these trucks there will always be a bulb about to blow, return spring about to snap, or a seal about to weep. long story short, you've got to enjoy tinkering, and being a steward of 50 year-old nostalgia to enjoy owning one of these trucks. Otherwise you're likely to be miserable.

Menaces Nemesis said:

Some guys will brag that they can knock out all 6 in a day, duals 'n' all, and to them it's no big deal. But, I can realistically see it taking someone a full 3 days (or more) in a less-than-condusive environment

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I have done so many hub services I can recite off the top of my head exactly which tools you need, torque specs, wheel cylinder, bearing, race and seal part numbers, etc.

And it usually takes me 3-4 days to do a full blown, 6 hub service, including inner front seals and zipperless boots. Now, others might do it faster because I'm really finicky about cleaning everything so it's spotless but it's an enormous job and I have all the tools, including a custom built seal installer for the rears.

clinto said:

I have done so many hub services I can recite off the top of my head exactly which tools you need, torque specs, wheel cylinder, bearing, race and seal part numbers, etc.

And it usually takes me 3-4 days to do a full blown, 6 hub service, including inner front seals and zipperless boots. Now, others might do it faster because I'm really finicky about cleaning everything so it's spotless but it's an enormous job and I have all the tools, including a custom built seal installer for the rears.

View attachment 737474View attachment 737473View attachment 737472View attachment 737471

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WOW, that IS a lot of work. I've never seen a vehicle designed such that you have to completely disassemble the entire wheel hub w/I 10,000 miles.

djandj said:

WOW, that IS a lot of work. I've never seen a vehicle designed such that you have to completely disassemble the entire wheel hub w/I 10,000 miles.

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At issue is the weird seal. So, on these the seals ride on the bearing races and they keep the gear oil out of the hub and the grease in the hub.

In theory.

In reality, if you get a perfect seal and a perfect race and the seal and race are seated perfect and the bearings are preloaded correctly, the thing would probably go 100K+ miles.

But, like everything else mechanical, issues arise. For the most part, the reason everyone preaches fanatical hub maintenance is:

A. Lots of people buy trucks that have been in deep water and mud without servicing afterwards and they need to know the bearings aren't immersed in water and mud.
B. The cheap Chinese seals don't last long. Gear oil washes the grease out of the bearings and eventually leaches out of the drum.

I think on average I'm getting about 5 years out of a seal. The pictures above were from 2013 and I just noticed a few months ago that the middle axle is leaking on both hubs. Not sure how many miles, but not many. Maybe 2500.
Keep in mind, the M44 series truck prototype came about in 1949 and production begins in 1950. They're ancient technology.

djandj said:

WOW, that IS a lot of work. I've never seen a vehicle designed such that you have to completely disassemble the entire wheel hub w/I 10,000 miles.

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djandj. One of the Steel Soldiers members here in the South West may have a good truck for sale. It's most important to find a well maintained truck that has a solid drive train, electrical, and a rust free body. I've had my Deuce for 11 years, and 20,000+ miles. The mistake I made when I purchased my truck was, although the price was right, and the truck looked clean, it hadn't been well maintained. So soon after I purchased it, I started having all kinds of little problems, leaks (coolant and oil), turn signals and other electrical problems, etc. etc.. What I'm trying to say is start with a good solid truck...don't scrimp. I'm retired so I work on my truck a lot. It's my Hobby. Even a good solid Deuce is going to require maintenance. So if your not into spending time under, inside, and around your truck, you may as stated else ware here. Find a Chevy or Dodge. Maybe a CUCV? Hope this helps.

I forgot to mention that an oil change will cost you over $100.00 easily on a deuce. We haven't even begun to talk about all the gear oil the transmission, transfer-case and three differentials will need. Also a LMTV is a much newer truck then the deuce. So peoples comments about them will not relate to a deuce. Apples and Oranges kind of thing.
Also all the deuces have been sold from the government auctions. I got one of the last ones sold out of Ft. Lewis years ago.
As has been mentioned, the militaries maintenance of the deuce has been spotty. If a truck was to be surplused, they would not spend the money to "rebuild" it now would they ? In fact a lot of surplused trucks got parts stolen off them for other trucks still in service. I remember doing that several times. In fact the transit agency I worked at still does that. Very common practice. So any truck you buy now will only have the word of the seller for what has or hasn't been done to it.
Can you depend on the word of a total stranger who wants to sell you a truck ? So then you have to totally check everything as best you can after you buy it.
Now you say you maintain a "Willys" jeep. That's all well and good, but a brake drum assembly on a Willies only weighs about 10 Ibs. A brake assembly (hub and drum and bearings) on a deuce weighs in at around 200 Ibs. Maybe more I don't remember anymore. This is a totally different animal then a small little jeep. All the parts are heavier, all the parts are more expensive. It's just how it is. I worked as a heavy tuck mechanic for 40 years and one of the first things an old journeyman mechanic told me was "these truck parts will hurt you if your not careful and they won't even care" . It's one thing to drop a small jeeps brake drum on your foot. It's a totally different thing to drop a big trucks drum on your foot !

djandj said:

How do you "abuse" an automatic transmission? Can't exactly strip gears, ride the clutch or shift it from first to reverse like a stick.

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The problem with an M35A3 is not abuse (well sort of), but that the OEM seals on the pistons that put pressure on the clutch pack, especially the 4th and reverse, start leaking past them and the pressure on the frictions and steels decreases (slips). Then people mash the fuel (rpm) and the clutch's burn out.

And the A3 is the ONLY Allison of the 545 series that used the locking torque converter (AT 1545).

It's not a terminal or insurmountable problem, but one that can be planned for and remedied. New piston seals are part of the rebuild kits and they have solved the premature wear problem.

Thus any A3 that has not had a tranny rebuild will have the old seals and will likely not be trouble free.

On the other hand, the Allison 545 is a very reliable and commonly available tranny in dump trucks and school buses. The guts to the 545 fit into the 1545, except the TC, pump and valve body, meaning all the clutches, pistons and gears are all the same and those parts are readily available, so rebuild CAN be done. And I think I've found the only shop in the USA that rebuilds the locking TC...so that part is available also.

Moral of the story is that an A3, bobbed (4x4), sounds like the right truck for you and is not near as large as the 5 tons, but one must plan for about a $2k - $4k rebuild of the tranny to make them reliable. Also, the 1545 can be switched out for a fresh 545 at reasonable cost (without locking torque converter). Unless I was on the highway a lot, that would be my choice.

I've had (14) 5 tons and 2 deuces and in general like the 5 tons drive-ability....but not in crowded areas or where working on them outside will upset the neighbors. For some reason a 23,000 lb yard ornament torn apart is much more objectionable than a 13,000 lb one. I'm building a 4x4 A3 right now.

Great information guys. So I get that older trucks are a big hassle and are old technology. But many of the trucks out there I'm looking at like the M923 etc. are from the 80's or 90's. Can't really compare the two can we? How is the maintenance/reliability for a M923 etc. from the 80's or 90's? Or is it a case of same tech just repackaged.

98G said:

I believe theres an exemption for historic vehicles over a certain age. You'll want to talk to people in California who have these things. Don't get your info from people out of state (including me), nor unfortunately from reading the laws. The relevant data is scattered and the exemptions aren't in the same place as the regulations.

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It is correct that plated "Historical" will get you around the CDL issue. I have a CDL but have never been pulled over or even questioned regarding my license in over 12 years.

I compare my 97 M35A3 to the more modern trucks, like my 92 M929A2 but when you step back into a deuce M35A2, they are 70's technology. Not that that is bad....some are sweet trucks.

It took a committee to decide to rebuild old deuces and put a one of a kind tranny in them that doesn't have overdrive...but yea... modern.

Personally I like the KIA versions of the deuce and 5 tons (google Kia military trucks), upgraded but much more modern engine.

djandj said:

Great information guys. So I get that older trucks are a big hassle and are old technology. But many of the trucks out there I'm looking at like the M923 etc. are from the 80's or 90's. Can't really compare the two can we? How is the maintenance/reliability for a M923 etc. from the 80's or 90's? Or is it a case of same tech just repackaged.

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I disagree with the "older trucks are a big hassle" statement. Older trucks, like the M35A2 are bulletproof if you maintain them properly. That being said, beat it hard and you should expect to put some $$ into fixing the stuff you break. These trucks have been around for years and were designed to be serviced/serviceable in isolated areas/regions. No complicated electronics, no CTIS stuff, no automatic trannys, just a truck designed to do its job under very harsh conditions.

The newer trucks are the governments attempt to make it so idiots can drive them. There are few creature comforts and keeping rain out of the cab or a clear window is near impossible. On the hassle scale...no difference in my opinion.

I tend to keep (939 and 809 series) trucks 4000-5000 miles and sell them. In all the trucks I've driven I've had exactly one major issue.

One truck I picked up from auction in Indianapolis and drove almost 6000miles in a single trip before handing off in phoenix. No issues.

I've put about 6000 miles on my keeper M925 with no issues.

Sitting kills them far more than use. Driving gently with your jeep in the bed I would expect any of them to last essentially forever. The NH250 used in the 809 and the earlier 939s was used in OTR applications as a million mile engine.

The military designs certainly call for frequent maintenance, but I wouldn't consider that to be major repairs.

I frequently take 1000 mile trips in them. KS to AZ is a common one.

Smaller trips of say 100 miles to and from a jeep show would be ideal to prevent lot-rot. Gets it up to temp and holds it there enough to drive off moisture.

"So I get that older trucks are a big hassle..."

Those of us who are committed to the insanity don't see it as a hassle... we see it as therapy, a labor of love, a project that will never be entirely finished, a never-ending story, etc. I've fixed what's been neglected, corrected what's been wrong, and maintained the truck to the point I'm very confident in it's reliability. As a result, I drive my truck about daily. 250 mile round trips are pretty routine for me. I know the truck is going to "need things" on a regular basis, but that's part of the adventure. The truck brings me a great deal of joy, and I take alot of pride in keeping it "standing tall".

One of the biggest differences between a 40+ year old vehicle and a new one is EVERYTHING on a 40+ year old vehicle has to be considered End of Life until verified otherwise. This includes things like the frame and large pieces of metal. 40 years of salt corrosion can turn a over designed frame into a ready to break pile of rust running in formation. All rubber and plastic is likely toast.

Unlikely you will know the full history of any deuce you look at so try to have someone with you that knows about them.

My prime PU is a 75 Chevy C10 and it gives good daily service but I know the history on it since my dad bought it in 1978 and it has been in the family since. I am lucky to live in a low road salt state but rust is still a problem. But it can do pretty much everything a new 1/2 ton can and in some cases more due to a full length and width bed. And repairing it doesn't require a computer.

Especially if you get a M35 with non directional (NDT) tires they probably will not last 10K miles even if they are new.M35s are rated less than 26000 pounds check with CA on a CDL for this. Grease is cheap, parts cost money. Air is free, tires cost money. Be guided accordingly. For any military truck get the operators manual, (-10), organizational maintenance (-20) and a lubrication order (LO) for the vehicle. Typically there is a plate on the dashboard that lists the pubs pertaining to that vehicle. Don't make a move without the pubs and read them. Careful attention to operator's maintenance is the key to success. I sweated 40K miles out of a M818 with oil changes, tires and a set of brakes. However this vehicle was exposed to a much higher standard of maintenance that the typical military vehicle, and was not abused. All my missions involved heavy loads: fork lifts, engineer equipment, other trucks, M113s and so forth. This was a matter of survival as I usually ran alone rather then in a convoy with maintenance support and I did not want to get stranded in some far away place by myself.