Wheel Bearing Temps High, grease & Preload Q's

UPDATE:

I spoke with the repair shop this afternoon...
-They pulled the pass rear wheel bearings again, cleaned them off (removed all of that Moly grease), & inspected them carefully (all looked good!)
-They Repacked them with High Temp Lithium Grease (the type normally used for disk brakes)
-They Reinstalled bearings
-They Reset bearing preload, 150ft-lbs to seat bearings, then back-off, then 50ft-lbs, back off approx 1/8th turn, install lock/star washer, tighten lock nut .
-Just 1 good bend-over lock tab was left on each of the star/lock washers
(I will need to order some more before the next time I disassemble or re-preload the bearings)
-They did a road test at 50-55mph for an approx 20mile round trip
-They Checked Hub Temps immediately at return
Driver’s side rears: 80degreesF, & 78degreesF (this side remains completely untouched since this Deuce became mine)
Passenger’s side: 105degreesF in the very rear, 115degreesF in the front rear (this is the side that was just redone, due to the gear oil leak it had at purchase)
Temps seem to be better (temps were as high as 180degreesF when I drove it on Saturday)
MAYBE Temps will drop as things break in (seals wear, etc.), MAYBE not...


SO, I'm gonna pick it up tomorrow, do a road test of my own, check the temps of the hubs & of the brake drums & hope that none of the hubs is over 120-130 degrees F.

Others have stated that their hub's run 105degrees F to 130degrees F pretty regularly, so I think I'll be OK if I'm in this range.


I'm guessing that the fresh pass side seals DO cause some increased heat in the hubs, whereas I have no idea if the driver's side has worn seals, different seals, or possibly NO seals (let's hope not!).
IF the heat somehow degrades the seals , OR if the hubs start to get hotter than 130degrees F I'll probably end up tearing it all apart myself & doing the seal mod that is described by "Gringeltaube" in this related thread:
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce/31749-hot-hub-3.html
However I have to think that the mod could be different for each wheel install, as there is no guarantee that the bearing & race dimensions installed are all the same. (could be different bearing suppliers)

It will be interesting to see if the temps drop over time (as some people have reported), OR (God Forbid) if the seals fail & I'm leaking fluid into the grease once again!

It just needs to be good enuf for the next 400 miles! I'll be home by then & I can then wrench on it myself!, IF necessary.

(IF you see a Duece on the side of the road this coming weekend in GA please be sure to stop & help! It might be ME!!) (I'm praying that "Sgt Murphy" takes a few days off while I make the journey!!)

I've spent ENUF $$$ on this recovery already!! So I'm hoping for smooth sailing from here on out! (But I DO have to confess that I took advantage of the situation & had the shop guys fix/check a few little nickel&dime things while it was in there... steering drag link adjustment, replace the turbo drain hose, check/top all fluids, fix a few oil leaks, check driveshaft bolts, check/adjust tire pressures, & look for anything else that might be "hidden"....) NORMALLY I'd do all of this stuff myself, but since I was spending extra $$ already, & having my road trip delayed by the unexpected repairs, I figured I'd make the most of it!!

I'll give it another good once over before hitting the road, but HOPEFULLY all of this now results in a very road-worthy Deuce!



SIDE NOTE: The mechanic used the blunt chisel method to tighten the lock nuts. He says he does this because using a socket tends to shear the keyway "tit" off the star/lock ring. To be honest, I'd probably prefer to use a toirquewrench and socket instead of a chisel because I do tend to believe that the lock nut has to be degraded by this method over time. BUT I'm no expert!! & I CERTAINLY didn't want to tell him how to do his job! (I felt I was ALREADY on the verge of doing that with the regrease & re-preload requests!) Nice guy! He was pretty receptive to my suggestions and put a lot of extra hours in on this job! But I did back up my suggestions with either a Maintenance Spec or a SteelSoldiiers reference!! So that gave me SOME additional credabiliity!

good luck!

Thanks for the update, hope you enjoy the drive home!

I use the Lucas EP Grease (red) I only torque the bearings to 80lbs then back off 1/8th turn.
I have not had a bearing Hot just warm to touch, this is after hiway speeds @50mph for 10 hours

800summit said:

I use the Lucas EP Grease (red) I only torque the bearings to 80lbs then back off 1/8th turn.
I have not had a bearing Hot just warm to touch, this is after hiway speeds @50mph for 10 hours

Click to expand...

Have you ever pointed an IR gun at them to get a temp reading?


Just noticed that you are in Alaska...
So I'm ASSUMING you are referencing summer driving conditions & not when you are wearing gloves & snow boots! Correct!?

(Sorry! I just couldn't resist!! Beautiful state you have up there!! I'm always AMAZED at just how big Alaska is & the natural beauty & resources it contains!! One of our better acquisitions!!)

Yes this was done in the summer, I do not have access to a IR gun for temps, but I feel the hubs and the brake housing while on long road trips. I love this rig work on it all the time and take it moose hunting in the fall. You need to get geeasy and get to know your Deuce.
You treat her right and she will reward you

800summit said:

... You need to get geeasy and get to know your Deuce....

Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more!

I have PLENTY of other "toys" that keep me up to my elbows in grease & oil (& dirt, & blood, & sweat, & tears...)
I'm sure that this one will be similar...
It IS already off to a good start down THAT path!!

BTW: Unofficially, I was helping with the repairs for this new "toy" on Saturday evening. So my "cherry" on this truck has already been popped!!

The usual thing that makes bearings hot is excess grease. Many mechanics think they need to stuff 5 lbs of grease in the hub, and to stuff the bearing tight full of grease. That makes the bearing pump grease which creates a lot of heat.

I pack as much grease into the wheel bearing as I can kneed into it with my fingers in the palm of my hand. After assembly, I add a few finger fulls of extra grease packed in around the hub side of the bearing, and around the nut side of the bearing, and that is enough.

The grease in wheel bearings is mostly there to keep dirt out of the rollers, and to lubricate the cages and seals. It also provides a certain amount of cushion to the rollers which helps prevents spalling.

-Chuck

Thanks for the tip.

I have NO IDEA how much grease has been used...

That is one disadvantage of not doing this particular repair myself.

I do know that they used High-temp Lithium Grease this time, & not Moly Grease.

I guess I'll discover how much is in there when I next get an opportunity to disassemble it.

As long as there is SOME air space stilll left in there I would think that the "grease pumping" action would eventually relieve the need to pump grease, and therefore reduce the heat generated. As to how long this would take? Your guess is as good as mine...

The problem with using torque values arises when you seat the lock nut. Remember, these nuts have clearances. When you set the inner nut to 50 foot-pounds and then snug up the lock nut, you have effectively overloaded the bearings with the torque of the lock nut, each nut is fighting the other and are at maximum separation.

I have found most bearings are a bit loose. With axle removed and wheel jacked up, give it a good shake (assistant) and FEEL with your thumb for relative motion between the hub and axle housing (threaded part). Now feel for bearing drag.

The problem with using torque values arises when you seat the lock nut. Remember, these nuts have clearances. When you set the inner nut to 50 foot-pounds and then snug up the lock nut, you have effectively overloaded the bearings with the torque of the lock nut, each nut is fighting the other and are at maximum separation.

Click to expand...

Exactly what I found. It changes the end result, and not for the good. Check for 'play' before and after the lock nut is tightened. There should be a small amount.

Armada said:

Exactly what I found. It changes the end result, and not for the good. Check for 'play' before and after the lock nut is tightened. There should be a small amount.

Click to expand...

One thing to amplify your statement: When the wheel bearing nuts are properly adjusted and tightened, you should be able to feel a slight bit of motion when you grab the outside edges of the tire and rock it by alternately pushing with your left hand, while pulling with your right, and then pulling with your left hand while pushing with your right... But you should not be able to see the motion.

-Chuck

One thing to amplify your statement: When the wheel bearing nuts are properly adjusted and tightened, you should be able to feel a slight bit of motion when you grab the outside edges of the tire and rock it by alternately pushing with your left hand, while pulling with your right, and then pulling with your left hand while pushing with your right... But you should not be able to see the motion.

-Chuck

Click to expand...

I agree

800summit said:

One thing to amplify your statement: When the wheel bearing nuts are properly adjusted and tightened, you should be able to feel a slight bit of motion when you grab the outside edges of the tire and rock it by alternately pushing with your left hand, while pulling with your right, and then pulling with your left hand while pushing with your right... But you should not be able to see the motion.

-Chuck



I agree

Click to expand...

Ah, a fine sticking point in the TM. You should only feel a TINY bit of slop when the INNER NUT is properly tightened. When you put the outer nut on and torque it to 50 foot-pounds, all the clearance on the inner nut allows the inner nut to be displaced , removing this play!

Got it ? The play is only there when the inner nut is installed. Since the nut can be turned by hand, there is a tiny bit of clearance.


Now a bit of clearance will cause seal wear. But torquing the inner nut to 50 foot pounds will overheat a bearing..

I just torque the inner nut to 50lbs then back off 1/8th turn put the locking ring on and bend it on the inner nut then torque the outer nut to 110lbs

Here's where i'm at in this deal. Torque is not subjective but feel is........However not all torque wrenches are created or calibrated equally. I have been a professional mechanic since I was 19. That was 20 years ago and I have been fixin' stuff on the farm and hot rodding since I was 10. Being a farmer and a MV enthusiast I have worked on a lot of different stuff. I don't use a torque wrench to tighten my wheel bearings on anything. The guy I had been a mechanic's apprentice under was an old factory Chevy guy that had been hot rodding since he was 12 and had been in the motorpool in Vietnam. What he taught me was to spin the hub while tightening the inner bearing retaining nut. When the hub gets resistant give the nut a good crank to make it snug. Then back it off about an eighth to a half a turn. Also keep in mind that not all spindle threads are created equal. A quarter turn moves the nut more on coarse threads than it does on fine threads. Then install the retaining/lock ring and the outter nut and tighten the outter nut down. Then re-spin the hub to check for resistance. If there is too much redo with more of a backoff for the inner nut and recheck. I use this method because I have done it a lot and I know how my tools "feel". If you are not as comfortable with this process or the feel of your tools use the mil spec. Just remember to use a good torque wrench or have the one you have calibrated to make sure it matches the mil spec. I just singled out my deuce and flipped the rear hubs. They ran fine all the way to and from hunting camp. It's like with your other vehicles. Once you get the feel for them it will be second nature.

ANOTHER UPDATE:

I picked up the truck today.

But before paying the bill I took it for a long test drive (approx 30 miles, mostly at highway speeds)...

Checked the hubs immediately after stopping with an IR gun.
None of the hubs was hotter than the high 120's (degrees F).

BTW: Similar temps were noted on the xfer case & trans. Diffs were cooler. Brake drums were cooler, Engine was hotter, Dog in parking lot was cooler... (I got kinda carried away with the shop's IR gun... Gonna have to buy one of my own VERY SOON. Neat Toy!! Oh yeah, useful tool also!!)

So it looks like the preload adjustment and/or the grease switch (to high-temp Lithium) did the job!!

I still have a small oil leak from the IP, & a small amount of oil weeping from between the oil filter mount & the block, but these appear to be minor. I can fix these once I get it home. I'll just stop often & check the oil level on the drive.

IP leak appears to be coming from the body split between the IP extension body & the IP main pump body. This is a new IP & it appears that the bolts at this split had never been touched (paint was intact). I snugged the bolts up & the leak slowed quite a bit, but I'll need to disassemble & reseal the split to stop it completely... Tough to get to that bolt on the back side. & the bottom bolt was a little tricky with the winch driveshaft in the way. But I think it is now "gud-e-nuf" for the drive home.

OH, & I just dicovered that I have a leaky input pinion seal on the rearmost axle... Nothing major, but another item to add to the list!

Truck runs good, drives well in the city & on the highway (seems to like to cruise at about 52mph), stops well, starts INSTANTLY,

& it seems to stimulate conversations at every stop...
-Some of the guys at the repair shop took their picture with the truck before it left.
-A woman at the gas station told me I need to get a set of fatigues to match the truck.
-& then I spent more than an hour talking to guys in the hotel parking lot at the hotel.
(If it hadn't started raining buckets we'd probably STILL be out there!)
ALL Good Stuff!

Still Keeping My Fingers Crossed for an uneventful trip home this weekend....
HOPEFULLY it will stop raining by then!

-Bear-

Sounds good! The IP is lubed by engine oil, if it leaks, it is seeping and not real pressure unless it is on the hydraulic head gland, on the side near the FDC. Good you snugged it up.

From the input gear, the first segment is the centrifugal timing device, this advances injection timing according to engine speed. Next is the cam section, this has a 3 lobe cam moving at engine speed and causes the hydraulic section to do the actual injection pumping. Attached to its left side is the priming pump, this increases the fuel pressure to the head. Finally, attached to the back side of the cam section is the governor. Attached to this section is the FDC, on the top cover.

Why 3 lobe cam? Because it provides enough speed for centrifugal advance and governor. The distributor section is driven off a gear behind the cam and this spins the piston at half crank speed, timed to the valves.

It really is a combination of very high pressure hydraulics, Swiss watch centrifugal components and a Rube Goldberg contraption to govern the engine.

Well, here I go again. Reading threads and such. Got hot hubs; can keep my hand on the rears for about 5 seconds after immediately jumping out of the truck; it was 93 degrees in the shade; I'm just concerned. It ran fine for 140 miles, but jees, those hubs were hot. No leaks, though. Any thoughts, fellow members?

Hot hubs are generally caused by one of a couple of things: Dragging brakes, too much grease, or too tight of a wheel bearing adjustment.

Tell me about how you packed the bearings with grease, and what kind of grease you used.

-Chuck