Dipper cylinder rod mystery , will not fold up 1.5"-4" short of latch. How to find what Length it should be?

419g

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So I ordered a replacement rod off a popular auction site, the seller had two listings with the same part #, I ordered it and 'poof' the rod was at my doorstep. I then took the cylinder with the rusty rod and the new rod and gland into the Machine shop. Long story short the handle pulls up short of the latch because the rod is not long enough. It also could be the gland ? I was not privy to either as the gland was rusted on and needed to be destroyed by the shop to get it out. Auction Seller say's the rod in the other auction measures "CENTER OF HOLE TO END OF SHAFT 43-11/16 INCHES, FROM END OF WELD TO END OF SHAFT 40-7/8 INCHES" since it is installed I cannot measure it now so looking for a replacement. Any Ideas on how to find the specs of this rod Part Alternates: G109187, 3040-01-299-8826, 01-299-8826, 3040012998826, 012998826
 

Speedwoble

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So I ordered a replacement rod off a popular auction site, the seller had two listings with the same part #, I ordered it and 'poof' the rod was at my doorstep. I then took the cylinder with the rusty rod and the new rod and gland into the Machine shop. Long story short the handle pulls up short of the latch because the rod is not long enough. It also could be the gland ? I was not privy to either as the gland was rusted on and needed to be destroyed by the shop to get it out. Auction Seller say's the rod in the other auction measures "CENTER OF HOLE TO END OF SHAFT 43-11/16 INCHES, FROM END OF WELD TO END OF SHAFT 40-7/8 INCHES" since it is installed I cannot measure it now so looking for a replacement. Any Ideas on how to find the specs of this rod Part Alternates: G109187, 3040-01-299-8826, 01-299-8826, 3040012998826, 012998826
When I am back at work, I can look up the prints.
I can tell you, from the prototype photos I have seen, the dipper arms were modified from the backhoe version to fold tighter, but I didn’t think the cylinders were different.
But have you stored the backhoe before the cylinder work? It is an over center system. Here’s a famous video how to use it.
 
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419g

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When I am back at work, I can look up the prints.
I can tell you, from the prototype photos I have seen, the dipper arms were modified from the backhoe version to fold tighter, but I didn’t think the cylinders were different.
But have you stored the backhoe before the cylinder work? It is an over center system. Here’s a famous video how to use it.
Thanks Speed appreciate your help! My dad had a extendahoe years ago and I could never do it when I was a teen(only got a couple tries) this I got the first try lol, my bucket will not tuck like that up against the iron rail contour and this is the end result. It was latched when I got it I fixed it and re-installed. It used to sit in the middle of the latch,
Screenshot_20210806-1851545_Photos.jpg
 
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419g

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Got the gland from Expedition Imports, so that gland should be right.
 
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frank8003

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So I ordered a replacement rod off a popular auction site, the seller had two listings with the same part #, I ordered it and 'poof' the rod was at my doorstep. I then took the cylinder with the rusty rod and the new rod and gland into the Machine shop. Long story short the handle pulls up short of the latch because the rod is not long enough. It also could be the gland ? I was not privy to either as the gland was rusted on and needed to be destroyed by the shop to get it out. Auction Seller say's the rod in the other auction measures "CENTER OF HOLE TO END OF SHAFT 43-11/16 INCHES, FROM END OF WELD TO END OF SHAFT 40-7/8 INCHES" since it is installed I cannot measure it now so looking for a replacement. Any Ideas on how to find the specs of this rod Part Alternates: G109187, 3040-01-299-8826, 01-299-8826, 3040012998826, 012998826
 

419g

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Thanks Frank! I bookmarked that site, very useful. I did talk to a part's guy in Kansas City yesterday, Jerry was his name; he said I could get the whole cylinder for $800 new from Case in Indiana. I spent about 600$ and now I need a new rod. I looked back at my messages to the Auction seller forgot I asked " how are these 6 different than your other auction with 2? G109187? These look NOS?"
and "Ok thank you I guess the only listing difference is in your Auction title those must be stamped CNH .
I do not care who manufactured them as long as they are same part # and the exact same specs.. So please make sure" Seller seems to be ignoring my current request to measure the ones I purchased but has confirmed the lot with 2 left is 43 11/16 which is pretty close to 43450" stated at part target. If I did end up with the Case rod, it is worth about 50$ more than I paid on popular auction sites.
 
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Speedwoble

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I checked against the CNH prints, and “CENTER OF HOLE TO END OF SHAFT 43-11/16 INCHES” checks out for G109187. They are 43.5 +/- a little bit. I’ll try to check the other rod prints on my break.
 

Floridianson

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Seems like the Case's I have run you have to do like the Video and bounce them up there. See how he released the control and then went forward with it and it locked. Take a couple of times practice but once you learn you got it.
 

glcaines

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Thanks Speed appreciate your help! My dad had a extendahoe years ago and I could never do it when I was a teen(only got a couple tries) this I got the first try lol, my bucket will not tuck like that up against the iron rail contour and this is the end result. It was latched when I got it I fixed it and re-installed. It used to sit in the middle of the latch,
On my FLU when I pivot everything to the left preparing to fold it back, it moves fairly fast, but slows down and stops just short of where it needs to be to meet the latch properly when folded back. I have to repeatedly hit the pedal to get it to move all the way. Each time I press the pedal it moves another 1/4 - 1/2 inch until it gets far enough that it will latch when folded. I assumed that it was designed that way to keep someone from slamming to a stop when it went far enough. When first moved to the left and I try to tilt, the result looks identical to your photo. Try doing what I do and keep hitting the left pedal repeatedly and see if it moves slightly each time until it is far enough to latch.
 

Floridianson

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You might try the bounce video way. It would be a pain if it lock every time when you are working / drawing back all the way. Been years but if I remember draw it back and at the last moment let the control lever go don't hold it. Helps if the crowd is folded and bucket is folded up for transport.
 

glcaines

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You might try the bounce video way. It would be a pain if it lock every time when you are working / drawing back all the way. Been years but if I remember draw it back and at the last moment let the control lever go don't hold it. Helps if the crowd is folded and bucket is folded up for transport.
I think we are talking about two separate issues in this thread. I believe the OP was originally complaining about not being able to secure the backhoe in the latch on top. The video being discussed involves latching the boom back by quickly moving the control forward.
Top Latch.jpg
 

419g

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Seems like the Case's I have run you have to do like the Video and bounce them up there. See how he released the control and then went forward with it and it locked. Take a couple of times practice but once you learn you got it.
The latch on top rear of the cab, to secure the backhoe for driving. I am going out where I am working on the FLU419 today will report back, I was thinking/hoping maybe there is some air in the cylinder I will pull the dipper in all the way and then hopefully it will extend more so the handle lines up with the latch
 

419g

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The M35C is still in the system available to dealers. I refer to it all the time. Also, be aware our backhoe seems to have more in common with the 580E based upon the dates, but a lot of parts are common. The military manuals should be the first reference. They list Case numbers.
If you can please look up (SPEEDWOBLE) the FLU-419 M35C Whole Cylinder part # is G109186 I need to know the dipper GLAND LENGTH
The Dipper has a different gland than the 580. The 580 uses the same gland for the SWING / Stabilizer / Dipper Cylinder. In the flu-419 M35C because of the folding aspect the gland needs to be shorter in the dipper and the swing(I believe) In the ARMY manual Dipper is given # NPN-242 (page 461 ARMY TM 9-2420-224-24P no NSN) swing is given NPN-240(page 457 no NSN) Bucket is 1543118C1(page 449 NSN 3040-01-241-4900)
I installed the Case 580 gland 1543019C1BA also known as (1543003C1 or 1543019C1) now the unit will not latch because I believe the gland is too long, I need the length to tell the machine shop what length to band saw it down to. Thank you!
 

Speedwoble

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If you can please look up (SPEEDWOBLE) the FLU-419 M35C Whole Cylinder part # is G109186 I need to know the dipper GLAND LENGTH
The Dipper has a different gland than the 580. The 580 uses the same gland for the SWING / Stabilizer / Dipper Cylinder. In the flu-419 M35C because of the folding aspect the gland needs to be shorter in the dipper and the swing(I believe) In the ARMY manual Dipper is given # NPN-242 (page 461 ARMY TM 9-2420-224-24P no NSN) swing is given NPN-240(page 457 no NSN) Bucket is 1543118C1(page 449 NSN 3040-01-241-4900)
I installed the Case 580 gland 1543019C1BA also known as (1543003C1 or 1543019C1) now the unit will not latch because I believe the gland is too long, I need the length to tell the machine shop what length to band saw it down to. Thank you!
Here is where the 35C is in the catalog:
backhoe.PNG35C.PNG
I have photos of the prototypes from the 1980's and can confirm that they modified the dipper arm itself to swing tighter(It has paint burnt off so we know it was cut and welded on.) I don't know if they changed anything on the hydraulic cylinder, but it is obviously a different color, so maybe.
1984_B.PNG
Cylinder G109186 uses Gland assembly 1543018C1, which consists of 1543019C1 plus seals. Sorry I cannot post images. 1543019C1 fits many CASE models from 1966 to 1993 and has a length of 3.38" (1.4" from the end of the threads to the end of the gland).
I backtracked and the Gland for both the stabilizer G109140 and the Dipper G109186 is 1543019C1 in CASE's catalog, but NPN-242 and NPN-241 in the military catalogs. The NPN are not CASE numbers. That made me wonder... Is the M35C backhoe on the SEE a Military version of the 35C and thus distinct?
Then my friend told me to look closer at the parts drawing for G109186 and I saw "M35C-Bhoe UNIMOG":
m35c.PNG

I looked back in the parts catalog for the 35C and it's cylinder is G106682, not G109186 as for the FLU. They are different!
G106682: 33.87" stroke, 47.5" closed
G109186: 35.12" stroke, 48.83" closed
Both use the 1543018C1 Gland assembly with 1543019C1 Gland!
 

Speedwoble

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Funny that you should mention the 35c when I was on the phone with Case parts per his recommendation I was browsing ebay for a m35c case parts book and ended up purchasing a repro parts catalog "8-2061" ' 35c and 35c wl backhoe for 850c and w14' Got it yesterday in the mail, Looks like a match!
However, the gland for the 35C might not be for the M35C, as mine used to latch and now it does not with that gland?!
I confirmed the 35C and M35C use the same gland in my last line.
I could not confirm all the differences between the 35C and the M35C.
Known differences are the dipper cylinder(longer), the dipper arm(relieved for more angle), the backhoe mounting frame(hitch added, maybe narrower), and the boom(added steel to follow the shape of the stowed bucket).
 

419g

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I confirmed the 35C and M35C use the same gland in my last line.
I could not confirm all the differences between the 35C and the M35C.
Known differences are the dipper cylinder(longer), the dipper arm(relieved for more angle), the backhoe mounting frame(hitch added, maybe narrower), and the boom(added steel to follow the shape of the stowed bucket).
Turns out the rod was short! Went down to the machine shop and put a tape on it today, Guess I should have measured it before I took it down to the Machine shop but it was heavy and well boxed!
The machine shop did also insist that the rod was the exact same length as the rusty one they recycled, so that did not help the confusion. Neither Did the Fleabay seller insisting that all his rods were 43 .5"
Mine ended up being 42 5/8 ish so about an inch'ish short of the 43.450 "spec
Thank you all for you input and help!
NSN might stand for Not Sure Number?
 
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