Looking for metallurgist info.

Ditch Baby

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Was pondering this idea a while ago. I had thought about possibly using Heim's.

Didnt search very hard, but i think the possibilities of finding one that was large enough isnt very great or cost effective. But like i said, didnt look very far.

Another idea i had was using a Bulldog coupler

Bulldog Adjustable Coupler

put trailer ball on axles, then welding tubes in between two Bulldog couplers.

some 4x4 guys over on Pirate use this on their buggies for a one-link suspension setup.

Bulldog hitch onelink setup--- - Pirate4x4.Com
 

gimpyrobb

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Go to Peterbuild or Kenworth parts store, they have all kinds of dog bones as complete assemblys or in parts for you to build your own.
 

G-Force

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I'm confused.....why is the dogbone lengthened????? And how come you can't replace the bushing in the I beam style???? I thought the bushings were replaceable in both designs. And the tube welded on the one on your truck made it longer???? When the distance between the axles should be standard due to the suspension configuration......Why don't you just go find a replacement dogbone for the one with the pipe/tube welded on it???
 
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crazywelder72

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I'm confused.....why is the dogbone lengthened????? And how come you can't replace the bushing in the I beam style???? I thought the bushings were replaceable in both designs. And the tube welded on the one on your truck made it longer???? When the distance between the axles should be standard due to the suspension configuration......Why don't you just go find a replacement dogbone for the one with the pipe/tube welded on it???

In the beginning of the thread I mentioned that due to the 53" wheels they had to relocate the rear axle about 8" further to the rear. That's why the dogbones were lengthened.

I don't know if the I-beam style can be pushed out or not. That would be helpful to know. I dont have a H-press so i would need to know what the minimum size would be needed.
 

G-Force

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In the beginning of the thread I mentioned that due to the 53" wheels they had to relocate the rear axle about 8" further to the rear. That's why the dogbones were lengthened.

I don't know if the I-beam style can be pushed out or not. That would be helpful to know. I dont have a H-press so i would need to know what the minimum size would be needed.
Funny but I just went and reread your first post and didn't see it.....but then again I am kinda old and my eyes are going..........Where in the thread is it mentioned???? I just want to make sure my eyes aren't playing tricks on me.
 

crazywelder72

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Funny but I just went and reread your first post and didn't see it.....but then again I am kinda old and my eyes are going..........Where in the thread is it mentioned???? I just want to make sure my eyes aren't playing tricks on me.
oops... my bad, That was in a different thread prior to me starting this one.
 

plym49

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Can you adapt 5-ton rods?
Five ton rods would have a different characteristic in terms of flex (twist), so even if they were adapted to fit because you liked their length, the handling would be affected.

There might only be one way to rigorously and scientifically settle the issue of whether an extended strut has suitable torsional characteristics.

We need an experiment: Someone with a spare stock Deuce rod and some heavy benchwork can do this. Here's how:

Securely affix one end of the Deuce rod to an immovable object, perhaps by welding the eye to a welding table. Orient the rod in the same manner as if it were on the truck, that is, with the center axis of the eye also parallel to the floor.Let the other end of the rod extend straight out, parallel to the floor.

Now, rig up a piece of angle iron - edge up - to support the distal end of the torque rod. You want a 'knife edge' (not literally) so that the rod is supported but can still twist unimpeded (no friction).

Now rig up a, say, two foot steel pipe. Weld one end to the free eye so that the pipe is parallel to the floor and extends out two feet. Drill the far end of the pipe for an eyebolt.

Affix a welding rod out the other side of the same eye, say 6 " out. Rig an easel or something with a piece of poster board. With everything at rest, mark your 'zero degrees' point.

What we are going to do now is to degree the torque rod, just like degreeing a camshaft (only different).

Hang 100 lbs off the end of the pipe, using the eyebolt. Mark where the pointer is now. Drawing a line from the zero point straight back the 6" to the center of rotation (the center of the eye), and then another line to the point with 100 lbs loaded, gives you (using a protractor) the number of degrees deflection with 200 foot pounds applied. Now repeat the experiment with 200 pounds - gives the deflection under 400 foot pounds of torque. Repeat, increasing the weight as you go. Now we will have a graph of degrees torsional deflection of a stock Deuce torque rod per amount of torque (twisting force). It might take a lot of weight before you see significant torcsional deflection - just think of how much the rear of a Deuce weighs. Another reason for this experiment to be done by someone with a heavy shop, as you might need to hang some serious weight.

Repeat the experiment with a lengthened torque rod - whether spliced or fabricated. If the torsion curves are close, you are golden. If not, well then the handling (articulation) of your Deuce has been compromised if it is higher (stiffer), and potentially unstable if it it less (easier to twist).

Note: if you have a magnetic protractor like those used to set pinion angles, you could dispense with the welding rod pointer and cardboard.

I am sure that someone on this Forum could knock out this experiment in a couple of hours. The results would be illuminating in terms of understanding any possible untoward effects from extending torque rods.
 
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73m819

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A lot of the flex and movement is in the rubber bushing, when the rubber dries out it loose this flex and movement
 

crazywelder72

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Yes but the flex of the rubber would be equal wether the dogbones were modified or not. It would be figuring out about the affects of modifying the dogbones or fabricated dogbones comparied to stock.
 

plym49

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A lot of the flex and movement is in the rubber bushing, when the rubber dries out it loose this flex and movement
I agree that the rubber provides some flex, but I posit that the rubber bushings can only deflect so far, and not enough to accommodate the extreme articulation these suspensions can handle. The additional twist comes from the torque rods; their I-beam sections make them able to twist.

Think of it this way: it would have been easier and cheaper for the original design to have used tubular torque rods. They went to an I-beam section for a reason - namely, an I-beam section twists more easily than a tube.

Plus: note that we call them 'torque rods'. As in, they twist. We do not call them 'radius rods' or 'trailing arms', which is what conventional suspension components would be called.

I just hope that someone with a heavy-duty shop does that experiment. We'd be adding previously-unknown knowledge to the Deuce data base.
 

plym49

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Yes but the flex of the rubber would be equal wether the dogbones were modified or not. It would be figuring out about the affects of modifying the dogbones or fabricated dogbones comparied to stock.
Correct. Conducting the experiment would help us put to bed the question of whether all of the flex was in the bushings, or if the extra flex needed comes from the torque rods twisting.

If that turns out to be the case, then we are set to see how different types of (modified or fabricated) extended torque rods behave in an attempt to ensure that a stretched rear bogie still articulate and handles like the truck did in its original configuration.
 
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BillIdaho

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And let us not forget, the arms have to maintain the capability to return to straight, as in after loading a torsion arm with energy and twisting it, after removing the engery, it has to go back from whence it started. Welding is more than likely going to affect that. Torsion arms take constant loads, and return to zero every time. Something that has been altered and not having the same amount of temper, will not.
 

gringeltaube

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And let us not forget, the arms have to maintain the capability to return to straight, as in after loading a torsion arm with energy and twisting it, after removing the engery, it has to go back from whence it started. Welding is more than likely going to affect that. Torsion arms take constant loads, and return to zero every time. Something that has been altered and not having the same amount of temper, will not.
Hey, don't forget.....these "dogbones" are subject to working as trailing /pushing links only and NOT as torsion arms!

The newer I-beam shaped version are one piece, forged, while the older type is a 1-1/4" round bar with two forged eye pieces, welded on. Everything is mild steel and perfectly weldable. I.e. cutting two arms to make one, longer one is no challenge at all! (has been done countless times, around here...)

The necessary twist (plus "return to straight" capability, off course) during suspension articulation comes from the resiliency of the rubber between sleeve and egg-shaped stud head, ONLY. Each joint on a "dogbone" has to flex about 7-8 deg. maximum, which is half of the max. allowed articulation on the Deuce's rear suspension, when EMPTY.

When this rubber bushing dries out it will gradually separate from either the stud (egg) or the sleeve; the link itself will never be subject to any serious twisting forces.

G.
 

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Squirt-Truck

Master Chief
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Torsion in the axle rods?? I am not following this thought. They are refereed to as torque rods not because they are in torsion but because they are installed to resist the torque of the axles from pulling and stopping since the springs do not assist in those matters. the only time they MAY be in torsion is during severe articulation of the rear axles when the transverse movement has exceeded the motion in the rod end and rubber bushing.
FWIW the old or original rods were round, on both 2-1/2 and 5 tons.

I have access to a torque machine if someone really wants to compare the torsional characteristics of the rods. I agree that it would be good information for comparison, but respectfully disagree that the stiffness of the "torque rods" will have any impact on operation of the rear suspension. But that being said, I am most willing to listen to other opinions.

Extending rods is still potentially hazardous due to having modified a suspension component without proper validation testing.
 
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