Need alittle help concerning Gensets

[bevanet]

Thanks a lot for your help! The fuel line is disconnected between the electric pump and the first filter. I think it is supposed to route behind the vertical angle iron, but it doesn't seem long enough. I attached a picture of it. The oil leak may have just been that they didn't shut the drain valve. I assume the rubber hose from the bottom of the pan is used to drain the oil. It is connected to one of the vertical angle irons. The valve on the bottom of the oil pan was in the open position. I think I can just move the knob from the frequency control for now. It it works ok, I'll buy a knob.

 

[Speddmon]

Well, the oil leak sounds simple enough...one of mine was leaking around that valve as well, I just took the hose from it's storage connector on the upright angle and gave the valve another turn into the pan to tighten it up some. Yours sounds equally as simple.

Your disconnected fuel line, on the other hand will require some work on your part. There are 3 fuel pumps on the MEP-003a and MEP-002a sets. The one in your picture with the line disconnected is the first pump (1), the fuel line on the bottom of that pump should be coming directly from the tank. The pump next to it is the Aux. fuel pump (3), the bottom fitting should be capped off, and the fitting on the top coming out of the solenoid should be going into the tank. The second pump (2) is bolted to the back of the Aux. pump. The line you see that is disconnected should go into the bottom of that pump. And from the top of the third pump should go to the first fuel filter (actually the strainer) in your picture.

If the lines are missing or are too short you can have them made at your local NAPA or any place that does hydraulic hoses. Use 1/4 inch hose and 5/16 JIC fittings to make the hoses up...they will not be the mil spec steel braided hose, but they do work.

 

[bevanet]

Speddmon, your description is great, I would not have known to connect the lines in the correct places. Why do they have so many fuel pumps, reduncancy? I won't have time to work on it this week. What do you think of the POW'R GARD ELECTRIC POWER PRODUCTS (T&J MFG INC) DIESEL GENERATOR SET MODEL DG5E, 5. 5 KW for a smaller application?

 

[Speddmon]

Redundancy is exactly why they have so many fuel pumps. In the field, you can have a fuel pump fail, but the odds of both of them failing at the same time...pretty slim. It'll keep you going until you get to do some maintenance on it.

The two main pumps are just that, they feed the IP with fuel. The third pump, the Aux. Pump, works off of a level switch in the tank. When the bottom port of that pump is connected to your auxiliary fuel source it will come on at the appropriate time and refill the tank for extended running periods (when you have the main switch in the run/aux position that is).

That other set you mentioned would be fine if you want something a little more portable. But why?? It has a commercial diesel (I believe 3600 RPM) engine, which is not going to be rated for continuous duty like the MEP-002 and 003's are. As long as it's not 20 below zero outside, since the 003 is air cooled, wet stacking isn't as big of an issue with these as it is on the liquid cooled sets (same with the 5.5 KW set you mantioned) when you run them with a lighter load. Really the only time you have to shut down an MEP-003a is for the 100 hour routine maintenance. They are super reliable, although a bit noisy in some peoples opinion. That's just my

 

[Isaac-1]

I have to partly disagree with Speddmon on the little DG5E, it has a Lombardini single cylinder engine. In general these small air cooled Lombardini engines have very good reputations (I am not sure on this specific model). The design is newer, parts are probably easier to find since you are not talking about an engine manufactuers that stopped production 20 something years ago. It is probably a step down in overall performance from the MEP-002a, but I suspect it is not that big of step. Being a 3600 rpm set it may consume more fuel at partial load, but may not since it also likely has more modern fuel metering, less spinning mass, etc. It is probably a bigger step in overall life expectancy, but for a backup set does it really matter as long as you start with a relavitely low hour unit that the life expenency may be 5,000 vs 10,000 hours. As I see it the biggest advantage the MEP-002a has is it weighs enough that it is unlikely to grow legs and walk off during an outage.

ike

p.s. One other thing about the DG5E, it appears to be 120/240 single phase only, which may be all you need.

 

[Speddmon]

Ike,

you're not really disagreeing with me. The Lombardini engine is a commercial engine, yes it is newer, but it is still not rated for 24/7 operation. While the Onan engine on the MEP's was designed for military use, and they found a use for it on their civilian products as well. They are good little generators, but I just can't see having one of those and an MEP-003a (which bevanet already purchased) since the MEP will run just as well partially loaded as fully loaded.

It is nice to have a back-up unit though, I have two, but mostly just for parts since the MEP's are harder to get parts for. If you were going to buy a back-up the little single cylinder 5.5 is a good one to have in a pinch.

 

[bevanet]

It runs!

I got it running!. Here is what I found: The bottom fuel line connector is missing from the inside pump. It looks like it is broken out of the hole. I don't think the hole into the pump is threaded since the metal is only about 1/8th inch thick. The power was disconnected from the pump. I touched it to power and it runs, but I'm not sure how to repair the connector.

I connected batteries that I took out of a couple cars. I took the knob off the gauge selector switch. I don't think I will need this since I only plan to run in the 1 phase 120/240 mode. I added some fuel and turned the main switch to prime. The fuel squirted out the disconnected line, so I connected it to the input of the strainer. Then after following the starting procedure, It started! It seems to run fine on just one electric lift pump. I guess if that one breaks, I can replace it with the aux pump. Any reason that it is bad to run on just one lift pump? (besides if it fails the gen will stop) I connected a 1000w work light to the 110v plugs on front and the lights worked great.

There are still some small details. I think they installed a battery (24v) meter out of a truck. It didn' work, so I ran a ground jump wire to it and got it working. Then the throttle cable wouldn't stay out when adjusting the frequency, but after twisting the button on the end it seemed to pop out and hold. Is there a way to lube this so it works better? The main AC volt meter doesn't work. I tested the voltage at the back of the meter and it had 240, but the meter reads zero. I tried moving the screw on the front of the meter which made the needle move some but it doesn't seem to work. Anyone know how to repair the volt meter or where to get one?

What speed does it run, 1800?
What kind of oil should I run? costco sells DELO and ROTELLA. where to get an oil filter?

I think it will handle my house. 2 5-ton ACs. My ampmeter shows 17@240v for the compressors, and 7@110v for the blowers. This is 17+17+3.5+3.5 = 41. The range, dryer, hot water, and furnace are all gas. The spec table show the current load at 52 amps at 240v. 52*240 = 12480. It is a 10KW gen, I can't remember the calculation for RMS (root mean squared). I thought it was .707x, but that is only 8824. Can someone shed more light on the 10kw rating, and if it will handle startup currents for the A/C's.

Overall I am excited that it works. I think one of the others in the event would have been in better shape, but at least it is running!

 

[Speddmon]

First off, congrats on getting it running.

No, it will not hurt it to run on one fuel pump, just disconnect the power to the unused one so it doesn't run dry. You can buy another one from your local NAPA or o'reillys, they both can get the "Facet" pumps, just get them to look through the catalogs for a 24 volt pump and buy the fittings you need. The JIC fittings are 5/16" and the NPT are 1/4". If you need hoses any place that makes hydraulic hoses can make the hoses up with 5/16" JIC ends.

The Tech. Manuals are available on this site for free in the resources section, they are TM 5-6115-585-10, -24P and-34. In them someplace, more than likely in the -34 manual, it will tell you how to remove the governor cable and clean it, inspect it and reinstall it.

Sounds like you have the battery gauge taken care of, as for the volt meter, there is a member on this site right now parting out an MEP-003a, he may have the volt meter still available. If he doesn't work out for you, try Delks Army Navy in NC. They told me they have just about any part you could need for these sets. Here is the Delks link, and here is the thread...Parting out an mep 003a runs good

As for oil, and brand of diesel 15w/40 oil you prefer to run will be fine. I use the cheap stuff from Tractor Supply Co. in my sets and deuce. I've found with newer oils, the frequency of the oil changes has a great deal more to do with your motor longevity than does the brand of oil. Filters are below.

Fuel filters (2)...WIX 33113 (fuel filters come packaged with the proper gasket, OIL FILTER DOES NOT)
Fuel Bowl gaskets (2)...WIX 15131 (these are the o-rings that seal the bowl)
Oil Filter...WIX...51004
Oil Filter Bowl Gasket...WIX 15108
Air Filter...WIX 42222

As for the loading goes, that set should run your AC units just fine, along with the rest of your home lighting and probably fridge, freezer and a little more. The 12480 is the volt-amps of the set. You need to multiply that by 80% power factor to get the KW rating. 12480*.80 = 9984. That being said, the starting capacity (surge rating) of these sets is not specified or listed anywhere to the best of my knowledge, but I will safely assume that it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 300% of the load rating. As the military does a wonderful job of over rating the HP requirements of it's equipment, while under rating the HP output of it's engines. These same engines in the civi market (the Onan DJC is a 15 KW set) are rated for much more HP than you need to run 10 KW.

Good Luck, and keep us posted...and we need MORE pictures. A video would be nice too...LOL

 

[bevanet]

Transfer switch? I see where people have spent a large sum on a transfer switch. I will use this very little if ever (the power hasn't gone out for more then a few minutes in 10 years, which means I was probably stupid to buy this, but I love machines so I couldn't help it) I have a welder receptical that I installed with a 60 amp breaker. I thought that I would put a male plug on the end of a 8/3 wire and connect the other end to the gen terminals. Obviously I would not connect this with the gen running, since the male plug prongs would be hot. If the power goes out, I would turn off the service disconnect switch to isolate my house from the grid, then connect up the gen through my welder circuit. Once it is running, I would turn on the welder breaker to connect the gen to the power bus. Do you see anything wrong with this approach besides the fact that it would not be user friendly for the average user?

 

[Isaac-1]

Well first of all it is a major electrical code violation, second if you get caught doing it your local electric company may pull your service, and it may take lots of sweet talking to get them to turn it back on. The problem is if anyone in the house turns the main breaker back on while the generator is running it will back feed the power lines through the pole top transformer stepping the voltage up to high voltage and potentially killing a lineman trying to restore service something the utility companies frown upon. Someone either here or over on the Smokstak board posted a compelling message why even those that know what they are doing should not back feed. In his case he did the same thing you are talking about doing, during a long storm related outage he turned off the main breaker, put tape across it saying do not turn on, told everyone in the house not to touch it, etc. A couple of days later he was away from the house for an hour or two when the power came back on, needless to say one of the family members ignored the tape and tried to switch back to main power with the generator still running, as you can imagine this is not a good thing to do, thankfully no one was hurt including the one flipping the breaker, the breaker instantly tripped and I think burned out, the person tried resetting it repeatedly. This incident could have ended much worse.

Ike

p.s. The only way I would even consider what you are talking about is if you have a knife blade disconnect that can be locked in the off position even then it is a code violation.

 

[Speddmon]

It doesn't meet any code requirements at all, but a lot of people do it. It's dangerous for the linemen working on the high voltage wires where ever they may be if your service disconnect was not turned off. But I can tell you this much, if you ever do it this way and forget to turn off that service disconnect, your gen set would

A.) Burn up in a hurry as you would be trying to feed the whole grid with your 10 KW
B.) Stall from the extra load of trying to feed the whole grid, or
C.) BOTH!!!

Do yourself a favor and put in a new breaker, and receptacle so that your new breaker is at the top of your panel as close to your main breaker as possible and either buy or make an interlock for the breaker, so that you cannot have both the main and the gen back-up feed breaker both on at the same time.

Google "Generator Interlock Kit" and you will see all kinds of ways to do it safely and according to the NEC. These interlocks are very simple to make yourself if you have a drill, tin snips, some sheet metal and a little mechanical knowledge.

 

[bevanet]

Thanks again for the tips. I think I can build a lock out for the service disconnect breaker, or lock up the whole circuit panel. I'm not convinced that the gen would overload too much since all the gen current is going through the 60 amp breaker. Won't it trip pretty quickly if I try to feed the grid? The gen also has a circuit breaker on it which should trip too right?

 

[Carl_in_NH]

You're missing a critical point - backfeeding the grid is to be avoided because it could kill someone.

Given the safety precautions they take, it's unlikely it would be a lineman that gets zorched - but you never know. Accidents happen.

Here's an example of something that could happen; some weather event - tornado, ice storm, etc., has taken lines down all over your region. If you backfeed into the grid, a feed line (2300V, or whatever is used in your area for pole-to-pole feed into the transformers that supply power to each house) that's down on the ground could become live. Perhaps that wire only feeds your house. Perhaps it feeds two or three houses - and your generator can support those loads. That little isolated piece of the grid is live - and the casual observer might not think it possible - given a widespread outage. A child or other unthinking person might come into contact with that wire, and that's the end of them - the genset won't even breathe hard while killing them.

 

[Speddmon]

Thanks again for the tips. I think I can build a lock out for the service disconnect breaker, or lock up the whole circuit panel. I'm not convinced that the gen would overload too much since all the gen current is going through the 60 amp breaker. Won't it trip pretty quickly if I try to feed the grid? The gen also has a circuit breaker on it which should trip too right?

Think about what you just said here, and look at what you posted earlier. What's the max rated current output of your set? 52 amps, you're feeding through a 60 amp breaker...it's not going to trip before overloading your set. Granted, these sets are heavier than you are going to find in the home depot and will handle some overloading, but do you really want to see how much overload it can take?

Don't waste your time going with the panel lockout method, make or buy the interlock and do it the right way. The NEC (National Electric Code) if pretty straight forward about how it should be done. Plus with the way society is these days (lawyers and all), you don't want to have an accidental death or injury being able to be traced back to something you did.

Do yourself a favor and do it right.

 

[stampy]

I have mine setup so that the main and the generator switch cannot be on at the same time. I just had to buy the sliding lockout for the face of my breaker panel. It works great

 

[Polycop]

This is what I've got and it's pretty slick....
Generator InterLock Kit

 

[jas67]

Isaac-1 -- well said.

I'll add a couple comments of my own.

If you consider propane or natural gas, definitely get a tri-fuel unit (can also run on gasoline). Especially if you have natural gas; depending on the disaster, the natural gas supply could be interrupted without notice. At least with propane, you have some idea how long you can run until getting the tanks filled.

Regarding diesel vs. gasoline. Here, IMHO, there is no question, diesel is better. As another member stated, diesel fuel, is safer to store. It also can be stored for MUCH longer with degradation. Almost all gasoline now has ethanol added, which reduces the shelf-life of the fuel to less than 30 days. Even with stabilizer added, I don't trust gasoline that has been sitting for more than a few months. This makes it hard to rotate your fuel stock if you are keeping enough fuel stored for a longer outage. Diesel fuel on the other hand, depending on who you listen to, is good for 18 months to several years. You will want to use an anti-alge/anti gel additive if storing it long term (you can skip the anti gel in warmer climates).

Diesel fuel has about 15-20% more energy per gallon (about 135k/gal, gas=115k/gal), and diesel engines are more thermally efficient with this energy. You're looking at about 30-40% more run time per gallon. Propane is the most expensive way to run a generator, as it only has 91k/gal, and cost almost as much per gallon in some markets as gasoline and diesel.

Another consideration, depending on your heat source (for those of us in colder climates), you may already have a good amount of diesel fuel stored on site, as #2 home heating fuel is the same as off-road diesel, which is nothing more than #2 diesel that is dyed red to indicate that it is not taxed for on-road use.

I have 2 275 gallon fuel-oil tanks in my basement, but, because I also have wood-pellet boiler, and a wood stove, only use the oil furnace for domestic hot water from about April-November (and also heat when the temps are mild, as the pellet boiler makes a lot of smoke on startup, which happens a lot more when mild, as when it is colder, it can vary its heat output to keep burning continuously). I fill both tanks over the summer, and buy what pellets I think I need for the winter too (price is better). If I run out of pellets, I can fall back to oil. Anyway, the point is, for most of the time, I have about 300-500 gallons of fuel available for my generator too. I also have a 30 gallon tank in the barn for the tractor that I can draw on first. You can get a hand-crank pump that you can put in a bunghole on an oil tank from HF for about $35. This is handy to get fuel out of your oil tank and into your (portable) generator or fuel can.

Regarding capacity, as others have said, don't over buy. Not counting the inverter-type generators (usually smaller units for camping/RV's, or very expensive "quiet diesel" types for diesel-pusher type RVs), most generators will use nearly half as much fuel at low power draws as they do at full power, as they need to maintain constant RPM's 3600 (1800 or even 1200 for larger diesel sets).

The main cause of outages for me is ice storms, so AC isn't a consideration. We have propane for cooking, fuel oil, pellets, and firewood for heat. Our biggest load is actually the well pump. Most well pumps are 220-240V, and are split-phase inductive motors, so that have a pretty high starting current. If your pump is less than 1HP, a 3KW unit will do. If you have a deep well, and a 1 1/2-2 HP pump,you might need a 5KW unit to start it. Otherwise, my loads are the refrigerator, freezer, boilers (water circulator pump, and combustion blowers), and a few lights. I have a 3.6KW ETQ diesel generator (the engine is 178F, a chinese clone of a Yanmar L70A) that I picked up used for $200 (this will be replaced with one of the Yanmar repowered MEP016's I just one from GL). This fits the bill nicely, and only uses about a quart of fuel per hour at light loads, and 1/2 gallon at full load. Since my larger loads are very intermittent, my average is closer to the quart. I has have a battery bank and a pair of stacked Xantrex inverters (stacked to provide 240VAC). I only need to run the generator about 1/3 to 1/2 the time, (charging the batteries at the same time) and can rely batteries the rest of the time if I'm conservative with power usage. This is nice, as I don't have the noise of the generator overnight. I can also leave the house with the inverter running, where I don't want to leave my portable generator running outside when I'm not here to watch it (theft target).

In the OP's case, the desire to run the AC will dictate a larger unit that my needs, so the MEP-003a is probably a very good candidate. I am a big fan of redundancy (I will be keeping my current generator as backup to the MEP-016B/D, or maybe two of the MEP's), and a smaller set like the (diesel) 3KW MEP's may be a good 2nd set. I won't run the AC, but will keep the fridge/freezer running, to preserve the food, and well pump (if applicable) running as well. Also, if the outage happens when you don't need AC, and you can run on the smaller unit, you'll save a good bit of fuel. Remember, fuel usage isn't only about the monetary cost of the fuel, but also fuel availability (or lack there of) during a crisis.

 

[ssdvc]

I am looking to get a gen set for my house. This was just what I was looking for. Awesome info, thanks all !!

 

[Speddmon]

That's what we're here for .

There are some other sites with really good information about these generators, but the way I see it is this. S.S. is the premier site for information about military vehicles and equipment correct? Since these are pieces of military equipment, I want to have as much good information on this site as possible and make it where the people from the other sites come here to find out about our generators, and not the other way around!

 

[66Reo6X6]

Has anybody run these gensets on WMO or WVO ? Would it be similar to using these fuels in a duce? I would like to purchase either an 002a or 003a and have it shipped to ND if anyone has one for sale. Thanks!