No start and a big mess up with batteries

[shadow]

Well I did a mess-up yesterday. Trying to get my 1971 Kaiser M35A2 to try and start.

My M35A2 has not run in a few years. It always started fine until it just stopped firing. We suspected bad fuel. I was hand pumping the tank to remove the fuel and then discovered the tank has a drain plug. I never thought to even look for one as I didn't know that was even an option on trucks.

Well I never fully got the fuel drained and has worried about messing with the drain plug and stripping the threads or breaking something. This was awhile ago. I was told the fuel had almost no smell and the little smell it had didn't smell like diesel. (I have very little sense of smell so I don't smell anything)

Fast forward to now. I decided to make things easy (or so I thought) and just get a electric inline fuel pump and run a 5gal plastic gas can sitting on the cab floor. After reading about different pumps, I went with the Airtex E8131. It shows 10-14psi. Here is a link to the specs of it.. http://airtexproducts.com/single-product/?partnumber=E8131&id=98756AX

I am just wanting to use it for temp hookup and found that the hole in the pass seat frame is the same size as the mounting bolt for the pump. The pump even clears the door when shut so it is a nice place to mount it for temp use. Here is a pic of the hole I am referring to.

I also see there are holes in the cab back wall that are just about in line with the seat frame edge. They are perfect size to run some fuel lines.

So what I did was un-screw the main line and return line from the tank. I then got a 1/2" line to push onto the main line (and secure with a hose clamp) and then got an adapter to go from 1/2 to 3/8 to run a line to the electric fuel pump. (It has 3/8 ports) I used the holes in the back wall to run the lines through. I even ran the power wire through a hole so I am use 3 holes (2 holes run a single fuel line for the return and main line, and the 3rd hole is the power wires). I put the gas can on the cab floor and have the fuel lines run into the can so I am bypassing the main tank all together.

I ran a wire straight to the battery Neg post connecting to the neg main cable line to use as a ground for the pump. I then ran 2 wires to connect together to form 24v.

In the diagram pic of the batteries you see the orange wire connection I added for the electric fuel pump. That is so wrong. I thought running from the pos of 1 battery, and the neg of the other battery would give me 24v for the pump. Luckily for the fuel pump, I had not attached the wires to the pump + wire yet. The orange wires were connected to the batteries, but nothing else at that point.

I then connect the main battery cables. I put the one marked Pos to the pos post. I put the neg marked cable on the neg post of the 2nd battery. I then go to attach the 3rd cable that has the jumper line to make 24v. This is where things went sideways.

The moment I touched the battery posts there was a huge flash and noise. It instantly reminded me of my welding classes when doing spray transfer. That loud BUZZZZZ sound. In about 1 full second the positive post of the battery was gone, melted, no longer in existence. I grabbed the cable and yanked (as it was stuck now making a direct short) The cable came loose from the melted end. It was partly melted on the other batteries neg post. That post is still usable. The positive post is no longer there where it arced.

Here is a pic of my battery now. All this happened in about 1 second. These are 800CCA 985CA batteries.

I let it cool as the orange wires were very hot, but they didn't melt. It is 12gauge wire I had on a spool. I was using them to make a 24v connection to run the electric fuel pump. Only the ground wire was connected to the pump so I didn't fry the pump as the pos side of the pump was not connected to the batteries yet.

The main cables have the adapters to connect to top post batteries. When it arced and melted the post, it also melted most of the connector on the cable. I was forced to use bricks to put weight on the connector to make contact to make 24v so the truck could turn over. This was a long process as every time I pushed the starter button, it would click and all voltage was gone. I had to keep going back and forth until I jimmy-rigged enough to hold the terminal on the melted pos contact.

I should mention, I removed the orange wires from the 24v I was trying to make. I left the ground wire on the battery. I then probed the plug for the main fuel tank and found where the pos 24v side of the plug is. I stripped about 1/16" off the orange wire and was able to press it into the plug terminal. This allows me to now have 24v without having to mess with the batteries. I then ran a wire into the cab so I just have to grab the 2 orange wires and twist them together and then flip the accy switch on the dash like normal and I have the electric fuel pump running.

I finally got the melted terminals to stay and could crank the engine like normal.

Now I am at the point where the engine cranks, but does not start. I thought running new fuel would solve the issue.

I went to the filter bleeder tap (I don't know what it is called). It has a drain cock that can just be finger tightened. It is on top of the secondary filters. The fuel came out very dark brown and then turned a yellowish brown. It finally is a yellowish color after spilling about a quart of fuel. I also un-screwed the plastic lines at 2 places. I tried the fuel rail at the last connection closest to the firewall. When I opened the line it was mostly yellowish in color. I re-connected the line and checked to make sure it didn't leak.

I then took off a line on the other side of the motor that is on the top. The line goes into a metal cylinder thing that looks sort of like a coil for an older car. I see there is a much smaller toothpick sized line that runs from it to the turbo area. I only took off the plastic line that was running into the metal object. I don't have my TM's as I am using a old laptop because of computer issues so I am lost as I have no reference pdf's. This laptop has issues opening pdfs so I am stuck getting access to repair steps.

After closing up all the lines I opened, I tried starting the truck. I cranked in 5-7 send intervals delaying in-between to let the starter cool. The truck never fired up. It would just crank and crank.

I tried moving the shut off handle while cranking. I tried stepping on the gas pedal and I even tried pulling the throttle handle. Nothing made it fire up.

It always fired up with a second before the gas went bad. I drained the batteries cranking so I have to recharged them at home. In the pic of the battery, I had to get an adapter to now use the side post to charge and use it.

I tried looking for issue on this site and am wondering if the shutoff rod is gummed up/stuck. I looked up videos and will try looking at that to see if maybe the rod is causing the issue. I found a nice video showing what I need to look at (I am guessing I should start there) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuzZBicUIok

I was wondering, if the fuel filters are clogged or bad, can I possible remove the filters and run the truck without them? I don't have any money right now to buy filters or parts so I am trying to find a way to get it started because I have to move it at my storage place. It only needs to move a few spots over, and maybe pull my other ford truck to move it. After that is can sit and I can work on it to do proper repairs.

 

[SCSG-G4]

Wail till you can afford filters to do anything. The batteries should have never been messed with, and that is going to be an expensive lesson because you now have to replace the ones with the damaged terminals. Finish draining the fuel lines and the fuel tank, and remember unless you have a very old truck (1950's, before the LDS-427 or the LD/LDT-465) the only fuel you should be using is over the road diesel.

 

[shadow]

I think I can get some fuel filters locally through Napa. They are priced much lower then what I found online. I am a little lost as I am seeing posts referring to gaskets with wix or napa part numbers (using the sticky post with part reference numbers). The filters are supposed to come with gaskets so I am getting lost on that. They have 3511 and 3512 filters so I should have the right ones but I don't understand yet why there is a reference for gaskets when the filters come with them already.

I wasn't trying to mess up the batteries. The truck didn't have batteries when I got it so I ended up buying a set of batteries for it that I can also use for my other cars/pickup. That is why I have the top and side post style of batteries. I can switch them between cars and use them in what I need without having to buy a bunch of batteries. I have to now use the side post adapter to connect the deuce because of the melted top post.


I am trying to educate myself as to why the orange wire I placed caused a short. Every diagram I come across shows I should have gotten 24v by hooking it up that way. It was even following the trucks hookup so I am totally confused as to why it shorted.

I'm going to drain the filters to see what the color is. I also want to be able to take the filters with me to make sure the Napa ones are the same. I did find out the other line I was draining is part of the flame heater. Now I know what that part was.

The gas tank will have to wait for a bit. I have already bypassed it with the inline electric pump so I can rule out any debris or whatever coming from the tank. I got some diesel from the gas station next door and it is the newer bio type that said it contained 5 to 20 parts of bio something. I don't remember what it said specifically but it was the normal diesel pump.

I do not know what was in my tank when I bought the truck as the guy said they have run oil, kerosene, and diesel. He had 4 trucks for sale and didn't remember what was in the tank of the one I bought. I plan on running the diesel from the gas stations to be safe.

 

[tobyS]

There is nothing wrong with most of the electric diagram except that line that T's with the jumper that is not labeled. What does it go to? Coming off there is used only to pull off 12 vdc, but can give a direct short if hooked wrong. To take a terminal off, it was a large wire, not the small fuel pump electric wire that caused the short.

When I use a can I make sure it's clean and I bypass everything, filters and hoses and connect direct to the IP.

 

[rchalmers3]

Hi Shadow, sorry to hear about your unwanted welding lesson. I don't have much to offer you about the fuel situation, but it sounds like you have some ideas to explore and work on in that area.

Interstate Batteries or some other similar battery supplier in your area usually has the ability to repair your existing batteries for low cost. They can mold on new terminal posts for you quite cheaply, but you will have to ask around to see who can do it for you.

Best wishes and I hope you get it running soon,
Rick

 

[Swamp Donkey]

I ran a wire straight to the battery Neg post connecting to the neg main cable line to use as a ground for the pump. I then ran 2 wires to connect together to form 24v.

In the diagram pic of the batteries you see the orange wire connection I added for the electric fuel pump. That is so wrong. I thought running from the pos of 1 battery, and the neg of the other battery would give me 24v for the pump. Luckily for the fuel pump, I had not attached the wires to the pump + wire yet. The orange wires were connected to the batteries, but nothing else at that point. View attachment 732924

I then connect the main battery cables. I put the one marked Pos to the pos post. I put the neg marked cable on the neg post of the 2nd battery. I then go to attach the 3rd cable that has the jumper line to make 24v. This is where things went sideways.

It doesn't show in your diagram but you mention running 3 wires to make 24v for the pump. You don't need to "make" 24v because the batteries in the diagram are already wired in a 24v configuration. You only need 2 wires: the POS goes to the red post in the top right and the NEG goes to the blue post in the bottom right of the diagram. No need for a third wire. The diagram is showing this to be the same way the truck leads are hooked up. All this assumes that the new batteries are wired up correctly, and that the diagram matches your truck wiring.

Now the diagram showing the orange wires doesn't match what you're saying because it only shows 2 orange wires. You have an orange wire going to a POS post and an orange wire going to and NEG post...then they are connected to each other to form a single wire. This is a dead short! You have a POS directly connected to a NEG. This is most likely the reason your post went bye bye.

FWIW, if you had a properly sized inline fuse in the POS line then you would've just popped the fuse, instead of starting the 4th of July show a couple days early. A properly fused circuit is important.

 

[tobyS]

SD, I don't think the orange wires are connected together the way the diagram appears. It doesn't make sense that he connected a ground and then connected two more wires (for the pump), but a 12 gauge wire seems very unlikely to burn a terminal off without melting the 12 gauge wire first. And then he also says he had not hooked the positive terminal to the pump (nor fried the pump). Hot wires would seem to indicate the pump wires were involved, but I can hardly think the terminal taking less amps than a 12 ga wire to melt away.

Notice also his note on the jumper wire where it shows a T, that says it runs someplace under the cab. Why would a jumper go anyplace but direct from one bat positive to the other negative...normally it wouldn't.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

He said the orange wires were very hot. Lead melts a lot sooner than copper. There was a completed circuit on the orange wires for them to get hot. If he didn't have the pump hooked up then the orange wires had to be connected to each other.

He's already using 3 wires to make 24v which isn't necessary. The diagram, whether right or wrong, is showing a dead short on the orange wires. The orange wires were carrying current to get hot. If they were not connected to each other, they wouldn't get hot because the pump wasn't completing the circuit since only the ground was connected to it.

He reconnected the battery cables using bricks to the same post that melted and moved the orange wires elsewhere. This tells me the problem is with the oranges wires because he was able to get the cables connected without further issue.

The unlabeled cable is a question mark, but the orange wires made a circuit and the diagram indicates the circuit was a dead short. I'm also not seeing where the slave port leads are falling in the diagram.

I can only go by what's postes: 3 wires were used when only 2 were needed and the diagram shows a dead short.

 

[shadow]

I'll try to explain myself a little better. I am using pics found online (except for my melted battery pic ) Here is another pic to try and show how I hooked things up.



There are 3 main wires going to the battery box from the truck. #1 is marked with a tag saying Pos. The #2 wire is a single line and the #3 wire has a crimp on the connection to make a longer jumper lead and has terminals on both ends. In this pic, the brown line is the 3rd main cable line coming from under the cab.

I did look and saw the 2nd wire goes to the frame so it would be ground. Assuming the tag on the 1st wire is correct, that is the Pos wire going to the starter. That 3rd line is not marked and I have not followed it to see where it goes. It appears to go up under the cab, not over the frame.

The orange wires in the pic are how I connected them. The line connecting to make 24v stopped like that and was not connected to anything else yet, just the batteries. I put the orange wire on before I placed the 3rd main cable line.

The 3rd orange wire I had was for the fuel pump ground wire. It ran to the pump and the other orange wire was going to be the Pos power wire for the pump.

I was thinking that because the truck has the Pos and Neg ends making 24v power using just one terminal from each battery that I can do the same using the other side of the batteries so I would not interfere with the connections that the 3rd main cable uses. Instead it arced hard and melted the terminal in about 1 second. It was already melted and sticking to the puddle when I pulled the cable to stop the short. I then stepped away to let them cool and make sure nothing would explode.

After about a minute, I came back and touched the orange wires and felt the heat through my gloves. The orange 12gauge wires did not melt. I am thinking that maybe because I was setting the main battery cables down onto the posts that the arc was able to jump to the cable from the posts and having an air gap makes the arc stronger. Something like in welding. When using stick welding if you pull the rod away the arc gets long and really splatters. I am guessing the same type of thing happened here and the arc temperature melted the lead post before the orange wire could get hot enough from the short. I'm just guessing at what happened because I am trying to get a better understanding so nothing like this happens again.

I am having to try and get the truck running using little to no money. The fuel pump did recommend a fuse but I don't have any inline fuse blocks or anything. The only old fuses I have are the recalled harbor freight fuses that don't work as fuses. They are the ones that you can make a direct short on a battery and they just kind of glow then melt. I only kept them so in case I have to make a temp fix I don't have to use a screw or something metal to fit in the fuse slot. I can just use one of those fuses and know they will never blow so they are basically just a strip of metal to make a contact. I didn't want to use those fuses on the pump knowing they will not blow at the listed amperage. I had actually tested one of the 25amp fuses hooking a wire to make a direct short to see if it pops. It just glowed and the plastic started to bubble and then it blew as it caught fire.

I am trying to double check everything I do now as I am having issues because of my meds. I am taking new meds and one called Lyrica was upped from 75mg to 600mg and I am having some side effects that includes problems concentrating. I think that is why I messed up the battery connections for the pump.

rchalmers3-
I do have Interstate Batteries here. I had no idea remaking a post was even a thing was can be done. I will call around to see what my options are. My battery is from a place called Batteries Plus and I am only like 6 months into the year warrantee. I don't think it can be fixed under that. I can always say I was just putting the battery cables on and it went poof. It must have been soft lead to disappear like that.

tobyS-
The line that T's goes under the truck. I am not sure what it goes to just yet. I'm going to trace it to see where it goes.
I never thought to bypass everything for the fuel. I was just thinking of bypassing the in tank pump. I think I will look into doing like you said and just go straight to the IP. I have brand new rubber fuel lines and a gas can so all I have to do is connect it to the feed line going into the IP. If that works, that would show the filters are bad or something between the tank and IP is the problem. I could probable run the truck the short time I need it bypassing the filters if it runs. Thank you for the tip.

And thank you to everyone that is giving input. I do appreciate it. I messed up and need to learn from it. I also need to educate myself to find out why the truck will not start after running clean fuel. Hopefully it is as simple as needing filters changed.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Even in the new picture you have dead short on the orange wires. You have effectively created a short on the wire that is split. That one wire goes to POS and NEG at the same time.

Remove the leg of the wire I have circled in black in the picture. Then you have a POS going to the pump and and NEG going to the pump. That's all you need. Place the switch in the POS line where ever is convenient. I assume this is still for temporary use to troubleshoot the truck.



If you can't spend the money for a simple inline fuse and holder then you definately can't afford a burned up truck. We're talking like 10 bucks. You already saw what happened when things go wrong without a fuse in place. It can get much worse than that. Your money though...

 

[shadow]

I was thinking I needed to go from Pos and Neg like the main cables run. For some reason I was thinking by only running to the Pos of 1 battery with the orange wire, I would only have 12v.

Now I see how I messed it all up looking at the pic. The main cables are making the 24v so I just need to connect 1 wire for Neg and 1 wire for Pos to the pump. I swear these meds are making me dumb as a rock.

I was looking around for a spare switch and thought I had found a suitable one. It is from a Code 3 controller for police lightbars. The unit has built in fuse panel and back lit switches. I took it apart and the switches are only rated for 18v max. I was hoping they would have been high enough for 24v (or 28V with the charging system running?)

Right now the power wire is pushed into the plug connector for the in-tank fuel pump connection. That way it activates the electric pump when I flip the normal switch on the dash. The plug is not plugged into the assembly (to make sure I don't run the in-tank pump).

I am very short on money right now and can't afford things for at least a week. I need to get the truck moved as the storage place wants me to move things around and make space for other campers. The deuce is in a bad spot so if I can't get it to fire up in the next day or so, I will have to hook a chain and tow it to move it over. I would prefer to have it running on its own power to move it so I don't have to pull it around.

I am actually thinking of making a switch connection for the fuel wire/plug and a fitting for the fuel and return lines so I can run 2 fuel tanks as it were. Something like what is on my ford truck that has duel tanks. I can later hide and mount the electric fuel pump under the frame and see what is out there to have a selector switch that is 24v so I can flip a switch to change between which pump gets the voltage to run (original tank pump and new electric in-line fuel pump). I also would need to make fittings so I can change which way the fuel is supplied. Something so the lines can be hooked back up using metal lines and be able to be re-directed so when I want to run off a smaller 2nd tank I can have the lines pulling fuel and returning fuel to the proper tank selected. What little driving the trucks has gotten, a 1 gal tank would work fine for the most part.

In my older 53' Reo M275A2 it is a gasser so I just removed the fuel line at the tank and ran a hose into a 1gal gas can sitting on the plate behind the cab. With a 100 gal fuel tank, putting just a few gallons into the main tank was not working out too well. Running off a 1 gal can works so much better. I should look into how to do a similar process with this diesel motor. I need to figure out why it will not start now, but after that I can properly fix/modify things.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

What is the amp draw on the pump? It should say on the pump.

Send me your address in a PM and I'll send you an inline fuse and a properly rated switch to make this work. Won't cost you a dime and can go out in the morning.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

50A rated switch
Waterproof inline fuse holder with 12ga leads
Assortment of quality fuses
All the proper connectors to crimp and go

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Your package will be picked up today. Fuses range from 10A--30A so you should have what you need. Hope this takes care of the electrical side. I'm not a deuce man so I can't help with the other problems.