803a Problem

[1800 Diesel]

I still can't get it to start. I'm getting white puffs of smoke when trying to start, but it won't fire at all. I'm frustrated....

Before turning over the engine the first time (once you knew it was stuck) did you get any oil into the cylinders? If not & depending on how much force you needed to get the engine to turn over and if the rings were seized/rusted against the bore, it's possible one of the compression rings was cracked during the process of initial "break-away". This will result in low compression & a no-start condition. Before you go much further I would suggest a compression test and if you can rig up the fuel lines/fittings as needed, remove injectors, connect back to lines, crank engine over & observe injector spray patterns/amount outside the cylinder.

Kevin

 

[Knuckles]

Here's an update on my progress. Or lack of it. Still a no go. I don't think its getting fuel. When I loosened the injector fuel pipes at the fuel injection pumps and cranked the engine nothing happened. I checked the filters - they seem fine and fuel flows past them. I also found this part in the bottom of the enclosure. Does anyone recognize it? To answer 1800 Diesels question: it didn't take much force to break it free, but a ring could still be cracked.

 

[ETN550]

Fuel circulating and no fuel at injectors. Did you confirm that the shutdown solenoid has pulled back and the governor lever has moved? Pull the throttle cable until the lever is maxed out in travel.

Injection pumps could be stuck. Need to read the manual on their removal. Always leave at least one pump in or the rack will slip.

 

[Knuckles]

As soon as I get some time I'll pull the injection pumps and see if that's it. I'll report back. Still wondering if anyone recognizes that part in my last post.

 

[m-35tom]

the fuel rack lever gets stuck. it is the lever the solenoid pulls when you turn on the switch for run/prime. make sure it is pulled all the way back or no / low fuel. also pull the speed control knob all the way out. the fuel system on these is self priming, just leave the switch in prime for a couple minutes. below 30°f they require heater.

 

[hcso2332]

I am having the same problem with my 802. The injectors are not getting any fuel. I pulled of the connector from the injector pump going to the injector and cranked it. No fuel is flowing past the injector pump. I pulled the injector pump and blew it out with air after compressing it, but don't know what else to do. Any suggestions?

 

[ETN550]

when you had the injector pump out were you able to stroke the roller up and down like the cam would do? Sometimes it is necessary to take the delivery valve out and work the plunger up and down with some WD-40 or such until it is free. after the injection line is removed from the pump the next thing in line is the delivery valve.

 

[m-35tom]

you still have not said if the solenoid is pulling the shut off lever. first thing to check if you have fuel returning to tank.

 

[hcso2332]

when you had the injector pump out were you able to stroke the roller up and down like the cam would do? Sometimes it is necessary to take the delivery valve out and work the plunger up and down with some WD-40 or such until it is free. after the injection line is removed from the pump the next thing in line is the delivery valve.

Yes, I was able to push up and down the plunger. I put some air through it when the plunger was depressed. I am reading the engines TM and trying to work my way through it but this one might be beyond me to repair.

 

[Knuckles]

The selenoid is pulling the shutoff lever. It moves freely. The speed control is open all the way also. I'll be pulling injection pumps today if time (and temp) allow.

 

[m-35tom]

This engine does not have an injection pump as most people think of it, it has individual metering pump and injector for each cylinder. It is possibly the simplest system known. You will need to remove just one metering pump. There is a pin sticking down from it that engages in a slot in the 'rack'. This pin rotates a collar that controls the amount of fuel injected since the stroke is always the same. The 'rack' must be free to move forward to rotate the fuel dump collar (with the pin) on the pump. To the rear (gen end) is max fuel, front is no fuel or shut off. The rack is spring loaded to the rear. This is because diesels start best with max fuel rate. One of the collars is stuck or the rack is binding, it all should all move freely. With one pump out, you can put your little finger in the hole and feel the rack and verify it's movement.Let me know what you find.

Tom

corrected rack position on 3/2

 

[peapvp]

1-12.2.3 Injection pump output is controlled by a mechanical engine governor. The governor also includes a fuel solenoid —
operated shutoff lever which stops operation of the injection pumps when the solenoid is deenergized. With the MASTER
SWITCH in the START or either of the two RUN positions, both the fuel solenoid and the fuel transfer pump are energized.
The fuel solenoid positions the shutoff lever to the open position, and the transfer pump starts drawing fuel from the fuel
tank. After reaching the fuel transfer pump, fuel passes through a fuel filter/water separator where water and small impurities
are removed. The fuel then goes to the injection pumps. With the engine cranking or running the fuel is metered, pressurized
and pushed through the injectors by the injection pumps. Fuel is sprayed by the injectors into the engine combustion
chamber where it is mixed with air and ignited. The fuel that is not burned by the engine is returned to the fuel tank
by an excess fuel return line. Power is removed from the fuel solenoid and the transfer pump, stopping the engine whenever
the MASTER SWITCH is turned to OFF position. The fuel solenoid and transfer pump are also deenergized by the fault
system (refer to paragraph 1-12.1). The fuel level sender measures tank fuel level which is indicated by the FUEL LEVEL
indicator from E (empty) to F (full).

 

[m-35tom]

Ok, I rewrote it to be more specific. Interesting that the quote you put completely ignores the final fuel filter.

Tom

 

[Knuckles]

I'm wondering how much fuel should be coming through an injection pump with the engine turning over and selenoid open. There is just a trickle of fuel when I do this. Should there be more?

 

[hcso2332]

I'm wondering how much fuel should be coming through an injection pump with the engine turning over and selenoid open. There is just a trickle of fuel when I do this. Should there be more?

I have no fuel coming out of either pumps on mine. I pulled one pump and blew it out with air and sprayed with WD-40. I was able to push the spring easily but after reinstalling still no luck. I did check the rack as M-35tom suggested. The rack does move easily when the fuel solenoid's lever is pushed back. Also, when the pump was removed I did turn over the engine and confirm the cam was moving the tappet.

 

[m-35tom]

HCSO2332, When you had the pumps out, did the fuel control sleeves rotate easily?

Knuckles, It depends on the dump sleeve position. Do the math, 1/2 gal per hour max divided by two. 1/2 gallon is 1892 cc for both cylinders so 946 for one. That is 15 cc per minute, per cylinder, so .017 cc (about) per stroke at 1800 rpm max load. (only injects ever other stroke) so answer is NOT MUCH!!

Manual says not to take both pumps out at same time, I suspect this may be because the rack may move too far to the rear with both pins out. Should not be to much of a problem to make sure the pin is in the slot of the rack even after both are out, just use a small tool to move rack into propper position to install 1st pump.

Electric pump should put out about 5 psi I think and the low pressure part of the system is self priming. When the pumps are dry, you should crack the injector line nut to bleed the high pressure part. When you put the pumps back in, did the pin engage in the slot in the rack?? Very important!!

Temporarily remove the small return line, you must have fuel there.

 

[hcso2332]

"HCSO2332, When you had the pumps out, did the fuel control sleeves rotate easily?"

Yes, the sleeve on the one pump I pulled moved freely. I will pull the other to check it as well. The fuel solenoid also appears to functioning properly as well as it pulls back when cranked.

 

[hcso2332]

I pulled off both injector pumps now. Both looked good and moved freely. I beleive I have both inserted corrected in the rack as I felt the slot with my finger, lined up the pumps and they fell in rather easily. After the install, still no fuel coming out of the pumps. This 802 has 3 hours and was refurbed in 2010, so its been sitting a while. I also removed the return fuel line at the tank and confirmed fuel is returning to the tank.

 

[m-35tom]

I pulled off both injector pumps now. Both looked good and moved freely. I beleive I have both inserted corrected in the rack as I felt the slot with my finger, lined up the pumps and they fell in rather easily. After the install, still no fuel coming out of the pumps. This 802 has 3 hours and was refurbed in 2010, so its been sitting a while. I also removed the return fuel line at the tank and confirmed fuel is returning to the tank.

It might be worthwhile to measure the fuel pressure at the return line. If it is 5 psi, I would then see if the pumps prime themselves while the gauge is on so there is pressure in the line. I don't know if the return line has any sort of restricter to maintain any pressure but would think it would have something of the sort, maybe not.

 

[hcso2332]

It might be worthwhile to measure the fuel pressure at the return line. If it is 5 psi, I would then see if the pumps prime themselves while the gauge is on so there is pressure in the line. I don't know if the return line has any sort of restricter to maintain any pressure but would think it would have something of the sort, maybe not.

I don't have a fuel pressure meter at the moment. I just got done swapping out the the main and axillary fuel pumps hoping the there possibly was a pressure issue with the main pump, nope. Same effect, no fuel at the injector pumps. Great fuel flow before the injector pumps at the fuel supply line.