831a with no power to the lugs.

[jmark]

up and running k15 red light on, K12 green light on, K14 no light on.

WIth S5 in closed position.

K12-12 0 Volts
K12-4 23.4 Volts
K15-12 did not try to test it because it was hard to get to with my leads and i didnt want to cross something up.
K15-8 23.5 Volts
S7-8 27 Volts
S5-5 27 Volts
S5-6 26 Volts
S5-4 27 Volts
S5-1 27 Volts
S5-2 27 Volts

 

[kloppk]

OK, problem is that K12's LED is ON meaning the set has detected a Fault. When there is a Fault the set will not allow the contactor to be closed under normal conditions.
Are any of the Fault Monitor lamps illuminated?
Are you pull starting the set or using the starter?

 

[jmark]

no fault lights . battery start. 2 12 volts in series. not sure it is time to add this in but the unit will not shutdown unless i unload the compression and the emergency stop does not shut it down either. perhaps one problem at a time still encouraged by the fact it is generating power. thanks for your input

 

[kloppk]

The reason it won't shut down even with the Emergency Stop button is because the K12 Fault relay is tripped.
When it's tripped it kills power to the generator controls including the Governor Controller (GC).
Normal shutdown requires the GC to have power and when S1 is moved to STOP that action removes power from the GC causing the actuator to swing back and be captured by the magnet causing the set to shut down. Without the GC having power it cant shut down the set.

Your set will be running at a below idle RPM since the GC has no power.

Have you tried momentarily toggling S1 to START once after the set has started and you initially released S1?
Try it and see if the LED in K12 goes out and the engine RPM picks up.

K12 is tripped due to the Fault Monitor thinking there is a fault. It is what sends power to the coil of K12 to shut the set down due to a fault.

 

[jmark]

so the problems are related...good to know. i was reluctant at first to include the no shutdown issue so as to not confuse the troubleshooting flow.
great info. awesome site. picked up another gen set today (5KW) but it will be a week or so before i can delve back into this. reading on manuals and site posts in the mean time. thanks again.

PS as i recall if i toggle the start switch while it is running the unit dies

 

[Joseph L]

I came across this post while looking for why that actuator arm might not be opening to let the generator start when I crank it. It was running great, but then when I went to show the misses how to start it while I was gone, it cranked well, but wouldn't start. If you manually flip the actuator away from the magnet the generator starts and runs fine. Any ideas?

 

[kloppk]

The Governor Controller A5 module is responsible for making the actuator to lift off the magnet when you start the set when using the electric start.

If it's not lifting off the magnet then there may be an issue with the Governor Controller. They are prone to being flakey or go bad.

There may be an electrical issue with the 24 volts not being supplied when you move S1 from Stop to Run. When S1 is moved from Stop to Run 24 volts will briefly be applied across terminals F &G. That brief application of power to the controller is when the actuator should lift off the magnet.
You could try measuring with a meter to see if you briefly get the 24 volts DC at those terminals. If you get the voltage there but the actuator fails to lift off the magnet then I'd suspect the controller is bad.

 

[Joseph L]

Thank you! I'm deployed at the moment, so I'll have my friend who has been tinkering with it take a look at report back.

 

[Joseph L]

Crazy question, but you mentioned "when using the electric start". Is the pull start independent of this issue?

 

[kloppk]

When pull starting and the batteries are missing or dead you have to manually lift the actuator off the magnet, pin the actuator into the manual start position, hit the compression release valve, move S1 to Run, pull start it. K12's LED will be on once it starts. Once it starts toggle S1 briefly to Start to clear the OP fault. Doing so will turn off K12 which then allows power to the generators Governor Controller. Then lift the actuator up so the locking pin snaps back in and then slowly lower the actuator to the the governor controller take over.

 

[Joseph L]

Much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[jmark]

as for my on going problem... i have been reading the manual online and looking at other threads for clues and general knowledge. the manual is great and lots to cover. one problem i am having is how to reproduce printed wiring diagrams at a resolution that i can read. having trouble reading them online for that matter. whomever spent the time to put all that out here for us to take advantage is to be much appreciated. i am not complaining in any way just cant seem to get something i can read. a paper copy works best for me due to where i am working on the set. perhaps someone knows the best method/technique. id be happy to pay for readable schematics if someone already has them.
thanks all.

 

[kloppk]

The schematics in the newer -13 TM are hard to read but the schematic in an older version is easy to read.
I always use the older TM when needing to look at the schematic.
I just generated a PDF of readable schematics and emailed them to you just now via email.

 

[jmark]

Thanks so much although i don't see the email yet. Just an email with a snapshot of the thread and your comment. Checked my spam etc. did not see it. ?
Went back over a few things: K12 light on while running, if i move the switch back to start the light goes out and the engine revs. up when i let go it sputters and dies. Now that i have better lighting i can see K12 contacts moving back an forth (thus the light?). All the indicator lights on A2 panel work. Nothing on now but no fuel light. On because i only put in a small amount, and was not on when i first started and was having the same problem. Anything to test with the plug on A2 ?

I think i posted earlier but maybe did not note the source. There is a laminated diagnostic test procedure under the hood.

situation 4 : circuit interrupter will not close. ( i guess this is one way to describe my problem)

Test Points
- From + To - Value
- Probable cause Test Condition/ Procedure

- a: Relay (K12) defective. Start-Run-Stop in Stop K12- 12 K12-4 o ohms

- b: Circuit intrpt. S5 defective S-R-S in Stop
Hold Circ. Intrpt Switch in Closed S5-2 S5-5 0 ohms

- c: Relay K15 or K1 defective Gen running
- Hold Circ. Inrpt Switch in Closed S5-2 TP3-TP31 0 VDC
- If this value is 0 VDC replace K1
- If this value is 20 - 32 VDC replace K15.

Is this an appropriate test for my condition ? On test c: test points does it mean the either TP3 or TP31 is acceptable for the negative point or check both?
If this test does/could apply i will run it again and double check my results.

 

[jmark]

well i guess the word wrap kinda jacked up my chart like layout after i hit save but maybe it make sense ? arrrr !

 

[kloppk]

PM me your email. I thought you were someone else!
edit: Email with schematics sent!

You need to put enough fuel in it to get the Low Fuel fault to go away. Sometimes the flat sticks so you may need to reach in the tank and jiggle the appropriate float. The Low Fuel Fault to trip K12 and turn it's LED ON. If that happens power is removed from the Governor Controller.

Lifting S1 to START resets K12. When you release S1 back to Run the Low Fuel fault is again tripping K12 dropping power to the Governor Controller and causing the engine to stop.



If you have a voltmeter and know how to use it here is a step by step test sequence to narrow down why your contactor isn't closing.


With the set running the LED inside K15 should be illuminated.
The LED's in K12 and K14 should NOT be illuminated. If K12's LED is illuminated when running don't bother doing the tests below.
You'll need to get the set running with no Faults and K12's LED OFF when running.

Here are a sequence of test steps to narrow down where the problem is.

1) Battle Short OFF
2) Connect your DC voltmeters negative lead to chassis ground.
3) Set you meter so it can read DC volts.
4) Start the generator
5) Measure the DC voltage the following points in order.
Toggle S5 to the CLOSE position and take each voltage reading.

K12-12 should be 0 volts
K12-4 should be 0 volts
K15-12 should be 0 volts
K15-8 should be 0 volts
S7-8 should be 0 volts
S5-5 should be 0 volts
S5-6 should be 0 volts
S5-4 should be 0 volts
S5-1 should be 0 volts
S5-2 should be 0 volts

Post up your findings when you can.

 

[jmark]

got it thanks so much again

 

[jmark]

If am understanding you and understanding the print.
After setting up conditions and based on the last time i did this test :
K12-12 was 0 volts
K12-14 was 23.4 volts
and so on.....

I will do the whole test again tomorrow after adding enough fuel to clear the No fuel interrupt again and post the results.

If i still have 23.4 volts @ K12-14 then (in order) as you said this is my 1st circuit problem to trace out and diagnose/correct.

I followed the wiring diagram from K12-14 to S1-3 from there to P4-7 which is a terminal @ A2 Malfunction Box
from here i get lost.
If P4-7 is a "fault as in ~23 vdc" output back to K12 then is that voltage corresponding to and input signal from the opposing P4-2 ?
P4-2 traces back to J7-12 via 34B18 and i reach a dead end.
Or is P4-7 just outputting voltage based on an input from any other bad actor(s) via the inner workings or malfunction within A2 box ?

Trying ask a sensible question with a pretty shallow knowledge base of the workings of electrical creatures.
I do have a friend that is a very good electrical and mechanical engineer. He is a little hard to hook up with for various reasons. I don't want waste too much of anyone's time trying to get me up to speed on all this. This method of remote troubleshooting by text can be long drawn out by its nature.
I do have a much better understanding than I did just a few days ago though. Also think this generator is in pretty good shape once this problem is fixed and i may need to upgrade the controller as suggested in other posts.
All the linkage is still marked and sealed in place, very clean inside, starts right up, no smoke .... surely nothing else could go wrong !!!
However it gets worked out i will post the results for the benefit of any others that come across this problem.
Great help. Thanks again.

 

[kloppk]

Here is an explaination of the pins on A2 and what they do.
The 24 VDC voltages noted below are approximate values.

P4-1 Battle Short
This is an input to A2 from S7 the Battle Short Switch. With BS OFF this pin will be at 24 VDC. With BS ON this pin will be at 0 VDC.
With BS ON it inhibits A2 from from shutting down the generator for all faults except OL/SC.

P4-2 Overload Short Circuit
This is an input to A2 from the Inverter. Normally this is at 0 VDC when there is no OL/SC fault detected by the inverter. If the inverter detects a OL/SC fault this pin will be at 24 VDC.

P4-3 Sensor Common
This is an output from A2. It provides 24 VDC to all the fault sensors. OL/SC, Over Voltage, No Fuel, Low Oil Pressure, Engine High Temp.

P4-4 Over Voltage
This is an input to A2 from the Inverter. Normally this is at 0 VDC when there is no Over Voltage fault detected by the inverter. If the inverter detects a Over Voltage fault this pin will be at 24 VDC.

P4-5 Engine Shut Down
This is an output from A2. When there are no faults detected by A2 this signal is at 0 VDC. When A2 detects a fault and Battle Short is OFF it will output 24 VDC. This signal is what turns the fault relay K12 ON and causes it's LED to illuminate.

P4-6 (Ground)
This is the ground input to the A2 to power it. It will always be at 0 VDC.

P4-7 (+24 Volts)
This is the power input to A2 and will be at 24 VDC whenever S1 is in the RUN position.

P4-8 Engine High Temp
This is an input to A2 from the Engine High Temp sensor. Normally this is at 0 VDC. If there is an Engine High Temp fault this signal will be at 24 VDC.

P4-9 Low Oil Pressure
This is an input to A2 from the Oil Pressure sensor. Normally this is at 0 VDC. If there is an Low Oil Pressure fault this signal will be at 24 VDC

P4-10 No Fuel
This is an input to A2 from the Low Fuel. Normally this is at 0 VDC. If there is an Low Fuel fault this signal will be at 24 VDC

Here is the schematic of the A2 Fault Monitor for those that may want to know what it's circuitry is.