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Alternative hydraulic hand pump.

coachgeo

coachgeo

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North of Cincy OH
Ronmar said:
After some analysis and math, I decided to try this pump out and think it will work well for my needs… FYI…

Click to expand...
could this be used for tire by going thru a home brewed manifold valve arrangement.... and or the Military manifold? IMHO better would be home brewed so can get parts more local when a rebuild is needed . Guessing similar restrictor valve as you have proposed could be used to keep tire from dropping too fast as you suggest for keeping cab from dropping to fast too...... though it looks like your valve in the video works fine for that.... maybe put a spring to hook to valve arm. Thus when putting it in lower position spring tugs it back just enough to not let it open all the way.... thus restricting flow.
 
R

Ronmar

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Port angeles wa
coachgeo said:
could this be used for tire by going thru a home brewed manifold valve arrangement.... and or the Military manifold? IMHO better would be home brewed so can get parts more local when a rebuild is needed . Guessing similar restrictor valve as you have proposed could be used to keep tire from dropping too fast as you suggest for keeping cab from dropping to fast too...... though it looks like your valve in the video works fine for that.... maybe put a spring to hook to valve arm. Thus when putting it in lower position spring tugs it back just enough to not let it open all the way.... thus restricting flow.
Click to expand...
Yes, you could, but I would want a longer lever as my tire needs like 2200PSI during lift. I think my cab went just over 1400PSI. 50% increase in pressure = 50% increase in force required, or closing in on 60# at the end of that lever. A longer lever would make this maneagable.

You could also plumb this in place of the normal hand pump or AOP and use the existing manifold valve. If using 2 pumps, you would have to insure the control was in the center or remained in the supply position so the other pump would not back-feed into this ones reservoir. You could also replace the manifold with a dual selector valve, which would allow the single pump source to control 2 different circuits like cab and spare tire… a simple dual selector is about $150…

As for speed control the lever is currently limited by a roll-pin. A collar slipped over that pin could further limit it based on outside diameter of the collar and reduce and fix the max lowering speed. I haven’t explored that yet, but the lever seems a little touchy/sensitive. The needle valve module would give a bit better control, but a different fixed stop might also work well I just have not played with it yet. It is simpler and one less part to provide…
 
R

Ronmar

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I was asked about a drawing for using this pump for both cab and tire lift. This drawing, and the parts described assume re-using the JIC4 hoses that are already on the truck. If you change hose end type, you will need to change adapters accordingly. The hand pump and the dual selector valve shown both use 3/8” Female NPT ports and the WFC flow control valve uses 1/4” NPT. All the parts except the 3/8“ port dual selector can be had at surplus center dot com. The dual selector is on amazon or Bailey hydraulics. The important thing to note is that the line off the pump that has the flow control valve attached needs to feed the lift side of both cylinders, so it can restrict/control the flow coming back out of the cylinders as they lower the heavy weight. This is the base end of the cab cylinder, but the rod end port on the tire lift cylinder… The tire lift also requires 50% more pressure, so will require 50% more lever force. A longer lever may be in order…

So if I am counting right:
7EA 3/8” Male NPT to JIC4 male adapters.
1EA 1/4” Male NPT to JIC4 male adapter.
1EA 3/8“ NPT Male to 1/4” NPT Male elbow.
Wolverine 1.5 CU/IN Dual acting hand pump.
Wolverine 60 CU/IN hand pump reservoir/mount.
Wolverine WFC-400 flow control valve.
Metro 280379 dual selector valve(amazon Or Baileys).
little bit of attitude(google it:))

B2C80CA3-079B-4A95-AB05-16A89E9B0009.png
 
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D

Digger440

Member
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Washington
Ronmar said:
I don't think so, i do work for the county, but havnt met anyone in the parking lot…

did you have your truck with you?
Click to expand...
Yes, I was parked at the east end close to Vern Burton. There was a guy that came over when I was leaving that said he had a M1079 and a M1083. I either didnt get his name or forgot it. My mind was focused on being pissed at the auditor's office. It is a small-ish area, maybe I will see you around.
 
R

ramdough

Well-known member
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Location
Austin, Texas
Ronmar said:
I was asked about a drawing for using this pump for both cab and tire lift. This drawing, and the parts described assume re-using the JIC4 hoses that are already on the truck. If you change hose end type, you will need to change adapters accordingly. The hand pump and the dual selector valve shown both use 3/8” Female NPT ports and the WFC flow control valve uses 1/4” NPT. All the parts except the 3/8“ port dual selector can be had at surplus center dot com. The dual selector is on amazon or Bailey hydraulics. The important thing to note is that the line off the pump that has the flow control valve attached needs to feed the lift side of both cylinders, so it can restrict/control the flow coming back out of the cylinders as they lower the heavy weight. This is the base end of the cab cylinder, but the rod end port on the tire lift cylinder… The tire lift also requires 25% more pressure, so will require 25% more lever force. A longer lever may be in order…

So if I am counting right:
7EA 3/8” Male NPT to JIC4 male adapters.
1EA 1/4” Male NPT to JIC4 male adapter.
1EA 3/8“ NPT Male to 1/4” NPT Male elbow.
Wolverine 1.5 CU/IN Dual acting hand pump.
Wolverine 60 CU/IN hand pump reservoir/mount.
Wolverine WFC-400 flow control valve.
Metro 280379 dual selector valve(amazon Or Baileys).
little bit of attitude(google it:))

View attachment 864996
Click to expand...
@Ronmar

How are you liking this setup? I am tempted to do this myself and delete the manifold all together.

My cab is a bit heavier than stock. Probably 600lb more. Once fully finished…. Maybe more. Your post above implies that for heavier lifts, you just need a longer lever arm. Is that purely a level of work issue? I am assuming the pump is capable of much higher pressures that a person wants to pull on that lever…. Correct?


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R

ramdough

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Austin, Texas
Ok,

Woke up more…. Looked it up.

Pump is rated for 3500psi, so lever length must be a work force issue.

The added weight to my cab percentage wise should not be that big of a deal.

@Ronmar what are you using for your cab air valve?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
R

Ronmar

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Port angeles wa
I think the empty cab is around 1600#, so another 600 is +37%? Where that weight is located will make a large difference in lift requirements

If you are keeping tire crane: The tire lift is about a 50% increase in pressure(2100psi) over the cab lift but still well under the pump capacity and is doable with the stock lever but since the needed pressures are below the pump capacity you can tailor the lever length to provide a desired effort level, so I don't think added cab weight within reason is an issue.

As for cab air control, I am currently using a pipe plug:). Air bags are toast and I am rounding up parts to fab my own design.

Does it really need a valve? We are not air shipping these where we would want to lock down the cab. If i need it deflated for maintenance I can drain the wet tank and loosen a fitting.

We usually want it on and if it fails it is easy enough to access and either cap or put in a simple inline isolation valve at the supply on the wet tank…
 
R

Ronmar

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Port angeles wa
While looking up another part today I came cross these 3 port “L” configured ball valves. A pair of these could be used to control 2 cylinder circuits from a single pump, like the dual selector I showed in the drawing above(Would just have to move 2 levers). At $32 ea, a pair of these would be a very cost effective alternative to the $157 dual selector valve… They come in various sizes of NPT or SAE so this one in SAE-4 could re-use the SAE-JIC adapters already used on the manifold valve and cylinders, which would save even more in parts…

Ball Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com

Ball Valves,Hydraulic Valves,Hydraulics, 3/4" STANDARD SPLIT FLANGE BALL VALVE New LHA hydraulics steel ball valve with chrome-plated steel ball.
www.surpluscenter.com
 
M

mccullek

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Oxford MS
My air/hydraulics is shot and needs rebuilding, and my manual pump appears to be shot as well, so I was thinking of going this route and just eliminating my air/hydraulics and hand pump. However, while researching the parts, I found this 12v hydraulic pump that I think would do the same thing without any hand pumping, plus it has a control switch with a long cord, so you could actually place the unit anyplace of your choosing and place the control box wherever you choose as well, or even move around the vehicle with the controls.

VEVOR Single Acting Hydraulic Pump 12v Dump Trailer 6 Quart Reservoir Power Unit 827843827348 | eBay

For about the same price as these hand pumps and maybe even cheaper than a complete rebuild of my existing system, is there any reason I couldn't use this pump to raise my cab? I'm guessing I could add a ball valve system as well and use it to raise and lower my spare tire as well. This would add the ability to incorporate other hydraulic options in the future too maybe. Is there any reason this pump would not work with the current lines and cylinders on the M1078A0 to raise and lower the cab and spare tire? Any thoughts on why I shouldn't attempt this as a work around?
 
R

Ronmar

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Port angeles wa
Well it is about 4X too big, which means it needs 4X the cable size and will pull 4X the current needed to actually do the job, while sending 3/4 of the fluid thru the safety relief valve. The 0.8 GPM is I believe a typo based on the KW rating and the port size, and farther down in the description it says 2GPM. You want under .5 GPM/-4 port size(not easy to find, I have looked)… My inability to find an appropriately sized electric(and the simplicity) was why I went with the manual only.

The flow thru the system is restricted by orifices in the control valve to not activate the safety devices built into the cylinders(catches the cab or tire if you blow a hose). You can use a larger pump, but it wastes most of that flow/power. A 12V@2GPM pump also pulls upwards of 250A. Thats like cranking nearly 2 engines(my starter pulls 150A) at the same time for a 30 second cab lift:) If you use an oversized pump be sure the safety relief is set appropriately(23-2500) because without enough system flow to absorb the pump output, it will immediately go to relief pressure(I think that one you linked to is 3200PSI which might be more than this system can handle)…

Both your pumps are doing the same thing? The point of 2 pumps is to avoid this sort of thing:) First off is the hand pump reservoir full? There is an allen head plug on top to add fluid to it’s reservoir. You could have an issue in the control valve that is re-circulating fluid instead of sending it to the cab cylinder, and both your pumps are Actually OK. You can play musical hoses and connect one of the suspension compression hoses directly to the hand pump output port. With the lock pins in place on the cylinders it doesn't matter which hose you choose, and the output port will be basically sealed. Now try and pump the handle. if it pumps with nothing moving and no fluid spraying, the pump is the problem. If it is solid as a rock, the pump is OK and the control valve is probably the issue…

Good luck.
 
M

mccullek

Well-known member
195
287
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Location
Oxford MS
Ronmar said:
Well it is about 4X too big, which means it needs 4X the cable size and will pull 4X the current needed to actually do the job, while sending 3/4 of the fluid thru the safety relief valve. The 0.8 GPM is I believe a typo based on the KW rating and the port size, and farther down in the description it says 2GPM. You want under .5 GPM/-4 port size(not easy to find, I have looked)… My inability to find an appropriately sized electric(and the simplicity) was why I went with the manual only.

The flow thru the system is restricted by orifices in the control valve to not activate the safety devices built into the cylinders(catches the cab or tire if you blow a hose). You can use a larger pump, but it wastes most of that flow/power. A 12V@2GPM pump also pulls upwards of 250A. Thats like cranking nearly 2 engines(my starter pulls 150A) at the same time for a 30 second cab lift:) If you use an oversized pump be sure the safety relief is set appropriately(23-2500) because without enough system flow to absorb the pump output, it will immediately go to relief pressure(I think that one you linked to is 3200PSI which might be more than this system can handle)…

Both your pumps are doing the same thing? The point of 2 pumps is to avoid this sort of thing:) First off is the hand pump reservoir full? There is an allen head plug on top to add fluid to it’s reservoir. You could have an issue in the control valve that is re-circulating fluid instead of sending it to the cab cylinder, and both your pumps are Actually OK. You can play musical hoses and connect one of the suspension compression hoses directly to the hand pump output port. With the lock pins in place on the cylinders it doesn't matter which hose you choose, and the output port will be basically sealed. Now try and pump the handle. if it pumps with nothing moving and no fluid spraying, the pump is the problem. If it is solid as a rock, the pump is OK and the control valve is probably the issue…

Good luck.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the additional information Ronmar. Yes, unfortunately, both pumps are having issues. I can actually get the cab up to the tipping point if I pump furiously for about a 1,000 pumps and that is no exaggeration either, but I can't get it any further than that. It literally took me about 1,000 pumps and only works then if you pump really fast. When using the air/hydraulics, I do see the mist coming from the hydraulic pump, so I'm pretty sure it needs a rebuild, but that doesn't explain why I can't get the hand pump to work. I am not familiar enough with it just yet to understand how the hand pump works, so maybe my issue is the control valve? What should I look for in regards to the control valve?

I think I understand what you are suggesting with the suspension compression hose, so I will give that a go, but if you can offer any further suggestions, that would be great. The more I think about it, I really would like to keep the system stock as designed if possible.
 
R

Ronmar

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Port angeles wa
The control valve cores are segmented by orings. A bad seal could let pressure pass right from inlet to outlet and have trouble building enough pressure to do the work…

capping the outlet on the hand pump will prove if the hand pump is indeed bad. You should not be able to pump into a sealed/blocked port.

The ports on all the hardware are SAE4, they use SAE4-JIC4 adapters to hook to the JIC hose ends. You could get adapters to make up a plug to seal that outlet port. Using a hose from the locked suspension cylinders is just a way to get a sealed/blocked port onto that hand pump with what is on the truck/available.
 
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