AmsOil // Lucas Oil in the Trans//TC

[pistonium]

I would like to respectfully disagree about synthetics oils not helping seals. Mobil 1 has seal conditioners in it that will help seals work better. (The new 'high mileage' Mobil 1 has lots of this seal conditioner I guess, but the regular Mobil1 does have it). I can personnal attest to sucess in stopping/slowing leaks due to Mobil1 seal conditioner too, but that by itself should not convince anyone.

Just google "mobil 1 seal conditioner" and see for yourself. I presume other synthetics have such conditioners too, but I haven't researched others.

 

[tennmogger]

I use Amsoil in 6 Unimogs, in the gearboxes, diffs, and portal boxes. The lower viscosity makes a huge improvement in cold weather running (especially in the underpowered 404 mogs) and in shifting the newer mogs.

Wear products in the transmission declined noticeably (and Blackstone testing confirmed it). Time between changing the lube can therefore be extended. With the cost of oils going up, testing is a really good way to save money.

As for leaking, my experience is that synthetic oil placed in an old machine will probably leak at first, but then run the truck more and the leaks seal up. I put Amsoil into a leaky 404 (4 portals leaking) and have had nary a leak since then. (Amsoil Severe Gear in the diffs and portals.) I change the lube about every 5 years 'just because I should' and it still looks fine.

Amsoil MTF in an 8 speed gearbox (U-1300 mog) is the only fluid that allows good shifting into 5th gear in cold weather.

Note that synchronizers might work a little more slowly with slippery lube. Just shift more slowly.

FWIW, I run dino oil in the engines and change it often. Synthetic engine oil cannot get the abrasive combustion products out of oil, only a good filter and oil changes can. When I get a centrifuge installed on the U1300 I'll run the synthetic engine oil.

 

[paulfarber]

I would like to respectfully disagree about synthetics oils not helping seals. Mobil 1 has seal conditioners in it that will help seals work better. (The new 'high mileage' Mobil 1 has lots of this seal conditioner I guess, but the regular Mobil1 does have it). I can personnal attest to sucess in stopping/slowing leaks due to Mobil1 seal conditioner too, but that by itself should not convince anyone.

Just google "mobil 1 seal conditioner" and see for yourself. I presume other synthetics have such conditioners too, but I haven't researched others.

I don' think you really researched synthetic oil... you need to look at synthetic oil vs additive packages.

As you stated its an ADDITIVE. Not all synthetic oils will have it, and you can get seal conditioners in dino oil and as goo you add in.

Its not a SPECIFIC synthetic oil property... just an add on.

This is interesting:

In July 1996, Consumer Reports published the results of a two year motor oil test involving a fleet of 75 New York taxi cabs and found no noticeable advantage of synthetic oil over regular mineral oil.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil#cite_note-17 In their article, they noted that "Big-city cabs don't see many cold start-ups or long periods of high speed driving in extreme heat. But our test results relate to the most common type of severe service - stop-and-go city driving." According to their study, synthetic oil is "worth considering for extreme driving conditions: high ambient temperatures and high engine load, or very cold temperatures." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil#cite_note-18

 

[Oldfart]

My son mentioned his old parents were electric car dealers in the late 70's. The Amsoil controversy was alive and well then as well. Suffice it to say that the local Electric Vehicle Club chock full of University Professors, and other science types set out to find ways to extend the range of EV's. The local club determined through on the road testing that Amsoil in the standard transmissions and differentials drew less current at the same speed and terrain over standard gear lubes. This was determined to be due to a better lubrocity. However, it was also determined that Amsoil gear lubes had a higher shear componet that resisted parting when the gears moved to seperate. The upshot of this in the electric cars tested was that top speeds were slightly reduced, but cruise speeds were maintained at a signigicant reduction in current. Most vehicles saw a increase in range of more than 10% and some achieved around 20%. No tests were performed on wear rates or fluid longevity.

At the same time there was a Teflon product that came in a tin can. It looked a little like coconut milk and was full of fairly light petroleum solvents. This stuff when added to an engine would cause the idle to jump up about 1000 RPM and really helped with gas mileage. After about 100 miles the idle would drop back down. A second can would do the same thing and the next thing you know, your rings are all gummed up. Some of us tested this in differentials and stick shift transmissions. Sycnromesh transmissions did not want to shift and it did not seem to make any difference in differentials. I often thought this Teflon product was one of the biggest scams around. However, Amsoil did work better.

 

[PsycoBob]

Synthetics tend to help with cleaning the crud out of an old/abused engine- sometimes causing leaks as the snot gets removed from a given seal. The syn oil didn't cause the problem- it just let you know the rear main's shot. Dino oil and regular changes are good enough for most uses.

Personally, I've used synthetic in everything from snowblowers, generators, cars... pretty much every engine I own- even the 2-strokes. I'm making a list of all the junk I need to lube a deuce right, including synthetics & Lucas stabilizer for the engine, T-case & Transmission. Diffs will be next year. When a full lube job gets close to $400, I'm allowed to cry, right?

Before putting syn gear oil and lucas syn additive in the t-case/trans of the truck, I'll drive it on a known route & check temps, repeating same route after changing fluids. For statistically valid test results, we'd need a few hundred each gearboxes driven by identical motors with identical loads- anything less can be explained away with the phrase "But (blank) wasn't the same!" or "But mine broke!" After full wear analyses, including UOA's and complete teardowns of all the units involved, we can begin to draw a scientific conclusion. For anecdotal evidence of Amsoil /Lucas products, including UOA's, go check the forums at bobistheoilguy.com

 

[paulfarber]

Teflon is COMPLETELY USELESS in oil. Teflon is not a lubricant.... and unless you get the part you want the Teflon to adhere to up to about 700F it will not bond to it. And when it does, its pretty easy to chip off.

Synthetic oil is not 'cleaner' than dino oil. The additives (detergents) determine how much 'cleaning' is done. Synthetic oils will resist thermal breakdown and tolerate higher temps, but if you are getting dino oil hot enough to char then you have other issues. We are talking light/medium duty vehicles.

AMSOIL was equal to dino oil (Castrol GTX) is standardized wear tests:

http://www.amsoil.com/performancetests/images/APIComparativeOilTest/4Ball_640.jpg

At .35.. so as far as wear is concerned it hold no advantage to dino oil. AMSOILs own charts show a startling fact... Castrol GTX is either as good as or performed slightly less than a fully synthetic oil! WOWZERS.

 

[AGE|kshaufl]

For anyone that is a skeptic about oil additives. Castrol openly admits to adding advanced wear protection additives, cling agents, and specialized detergents to their high end oils.

I personally run Lucas fuel conditioner in all of my vehicles.
I just started running the Lucas Synthetic Oil Additive in my 2001 Wrangler (140,000 miles). Which, with fresh fluids and clean air filter, was getting around 15 mpg . With the new oil change, 3 quarts of Mobile 1 (Synthetic) and 1 quart Lucas Synthetic Oil Additive, I gained 3 MPG, about a 5 psi increase in oil pressure, and no more of that Jeep Lifter Knock (typical for all Jeeps). I will take those results.

I have always kept my vehicles well maintained and detailed records of all oil, filter, lube jobs, and other things that I have done.

I too was skeptical but am now a believer. Anyone that drives a 2.5 ltr Jeep knows the mileage sucks anyhow, but with a 3 MPG increase that is just great.

BTW I use Mobile 1 in all of my vehicles except for the Deuce. It gets Rotella and will get 1 Gallon of Lucas in the oil with the next change.

 

[PsycoBob]

Premium oils get premium additives. Gtx is a premium oil, as are most synthetics. Pennzoil platinum is one of the few group iv oils. It uses poe as the base stock. Poe does very well at removing sludge and varnish, just as their claims for enhanced cleaning suggest. I'be no idea what Amsoil uses.

Paul, no sane person will put teflon/ptfe in oil. Dupont loudly calls such people idiots.

 

[paulfarber]

Most of the engine goo's were putting teflon in their mix. That's one reason they got sued when engines started going buh-bye.

And some math a 3MPG increase (from 15 to 1 is a 20% MPG increase. I'm gonna say you have other issues besides oil, or did the math wrong.

If that were the case they would be all over advertising the **** out of that.

At best test show a modest MPG increase (never more than 10%, typically less than 5%) with synthetic oil, an average 0f 1 MPG.

Also, increasing oil pressure is not a sign of anything. You could have clogged up an oil passage (oil pumps create FLOW, restrictions create PRESSURE). I would much rather see a SLIGHT DECREASE in oil pressure than an increase with a 'slippery' oil.

Sorry, but I don't believe you did much of anything switching to synthetic oil... that really not what it does.

 

[PsycoBob]

I can actually see a 3mpg change. I've seen a bigger difference from winter/summer gas and electrical accessories. On similar highway trips at similar speeds on clear-road days (wet, but not raining or snow) my accessories (blower, defrosters, headlights) draw about 130a from my alternator. 14.4x130=1872w, 80% efficiency makes the alt draw ~3.14hp. That's pretty noticeable for an engine making less than 25hp to move the car. Remember that MPG/efficiency don't scale together- 4-4.3mpg is a bigger jump in energy efficiency than 40-50mpg.

It's quite possible AGE borked the math a little, too (sorry). To be really accurate, one needs lots of data points- fill at the same pump at the same time of day, and hope the gas is the same temperature. Even minor flow differences in the delivery volume will cause the auto-shutoff on (same) nozzle to kick off at surprisingly different points. You need to average your mileage over 5+ tanks of gas, and NOT change driving habits. Even the placebo effect of knowing you're looking for more mpg can calm aggressive driving.

Lucas Oil additive is THICK stuff. I have no data on what it actually does to viscosity when at 200deg, but I'd imagine it's like jumping from 30w to 40w. A simple way to increase oil pressure is to go to a heavier oil- most 'high mileage' oils are from the thickest end of the weight class they're in.

 

[jollyroger]

You never *have* to use factory lubes. There was a huge lawsuit in the 70-80s about this and no auto manufacturer can demand that you use THEIR product.. only one that meets THEIR specs.

It is not worth having a legal argument based on technicality with the service writer over what my rights are when I have my oil changed at the dealership. I am fully capable of changing the fluids. I just have a service package that came with the truck so I will use it. Which means doing it their way. When I don't have to do it their way anymore I will use Amsoil in the Dodge.

Weather I "HAVE" to use factory lubes is not the question posed in this post. Please keep this post on track. Thank You.

 

[PsycoBob]

Back on track, then...

Synthetics (group III/IV) oils with synthetic/premium additive packages will perform as well or better than conventional petroleum oils of the same weight, if the conventional oils have similar additive packages. Every oil is tuned slightly differently, stressing one feature over another. Cheap oils tend to stress price- but more expensive oils do not always perform better. (see Paul's Castrol Vs Amsoil chart- GTX is outstanding for dino oil) Modern synthetic gear oils should be yellow-metal safe: at worst they cost extra and do nothing better than conventional oils. Excessive lubricity may cause syncro issues- drain it out and reuse it in a diff, then try something else... then tell us what product caused problems or didn't.

Amsoil 80w90 should do fine for every gearcase listed to use 80w90 on the LO, without harming yellow metals.

I'm willing to use Amsoil plus Lucas Syn additive in my transmission after some overfill related issues- I'm going to run it at the low end of the 'first knuckle' dipstick. NOTE: NOT SCIENTIFIC.

Bobistheoilguy.com is full of crazy people talking for page after page about how their syncro-MT really likes 3 quarts of X with 1 qt of Y. They've got great writeups of lubrication terminology and loads of data on what various products are made of.

 

[kc5mzd]

In addition to additives Lucas makes a gear oil. I used some last time I needed to add oil to the trans. You can tell the diffrence. Lucas is cleaner stickier and difficult to wash off your hands even with good soap. The only way I would judge a oil or additive is to look at it and compare it. if you put a drop on your finger you can tell how slippery and how well it sticks to your fingers. So far I am sold on Lucas.

There are a couple of things to watch out for when using Lucas additives. They are thick and should be used in lower ratios in extreme cold weather unless you use a block heater. In a trans if the gear oil is to thick it wont flow like it needs to and you can damage a gear, shaft or bearing due to the lack of oil. I have never heard of this happening in Texas as it never gets that cold here. I would be very carefull if I lived in Canada or somewhere it gets extremely cold.

 

[paulfarber]

Actually there are very precise and scientific tests to rate an oil. Your fingers are not one of them

This is becoming circular... people pop in and say X is great! It *SMELLS* slippery! I recommend it!

 

[jollyroger]

This thread is going downhill AGAIN. I'm unsubscribing. I was hoping the "I'm right" contest was going to stop after a moderator cleaned this up but I guess not.

I'm out.

 

[PsycoBob]

Op asked for thoughts, not scientifically rigorous testing methodology. Whatever you pour in is right for you, as are your repair bills. If someone wants kerosene and taffy for lube, I'd live to see the results: just not on my truck

Paul, if you can find the testing data comparing 80w90 Amsoil, 80w90 Lucas, Lucas additive, and gl1/5 for wear and whatever the term is for adhesion/climbing, we'd be in your debt. I'm going to pass out for 8 hours, and see if I can find data when I get up. Short of finding that data, it's all 'it smells slippery, but the sales guy says it works'. Any other test data we should be searching for?

/edit: Marvel Mystery Oil smells kinda like peppermint.

 

[Oldfart]

Global Warming (OOPS, Climate Change) arguments make more sense than some of this. 20 years as a forensic chemist for the Federal Government has given me the ability to comprehend the complex language of the CFR as well as ASTM, SAE and their books of methods. The various uses entertained in this thread all pose different requirements of the fluids discussed (shear, lubrosity, viscosity and thermal stability just to name a few). And here at higher altitudes there is a tendency for some products to wax out and leave sludge at temperatures below API standards.

I am exiting as well !!

 

[AGE|kshaufl]

Read my post correctly Paul before you comment!

1st I said I always use synthetic (Mobile 1).

2nd I said that I just started using the Lucas Additive to the Oil.

3rd It is in my business to get the numbers right. I know exactly how much goes in the tank, what comes out the exhaust, and what miles are put on my vehicle between fill ups, fluid changes, and other maintenance.

4th There were no other changes to the vehicle and no problems!

5th In reference to the tone and attitude you take with people that disagree with you, I don't like it! It doesn't contribute anything constructive to the conversation and removes the friendliness factor out of it. Which is what this Site is about. Information in a friendly and constructive manner.

Sorry moderators but just had to be said!

 

[PsycoBob]

Wow- I just dug up the MSDS for Lucas Synthetic Oil Stabilizer, in the hopes it'd mention something useful. This line really stood out- "Viscosity cSt at 100o C: Greater than or equal to: 45.0" The Technical Data sheet lists it as 45cSt at 100C. Non-synthetic version's TDS shows 110cSt.

At 98.9C, SAE 140 gear oil is only 25-43cSt, and SAE 50w comes in at 16.8-22.7cSt. At -17.8C (0F), 20w oil is 2590-10350cSt.

I shudder to think of what the lucas snot is at anything that low. Last time I poured it into a set of diffs, I heated the gear oil/lucas with a torch until it was "drinkable coffee" temperature, then easily poured it in there.

 

[micmccon]

I will chime in and say this: As a GM tech I can tell who is using Mobil1 in their vehicles. We are replacing timing chains in the 3.6 L engines used in the GMC Acadia and the Buick Enclave on a regular basis (cause undislosed). The synthetic folks have much cleaner engines internally and the nonsynthetic folks are sludging the oil. There are a couple contributing factors to this but all things being equal, I can tell the difference.