British Army mastiff (copy of our Cougar MRAP) defeated by Taliban in Afghanistan

saddamsnightmare

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:cry: May 2nd, 2013. Apparently the Afghanistan Talibans have developed the means to damage a British built Mastiff MRAP so severely that the three man crew inside died from the effects of the IED. Apparently the British Army (and I suspect our Army) will analyze how the vehicle's defenses were penetrated. I was trying to figure out how to transmit the link to this post, but I am not swift enough, so look under "British Mastiff Armored car damage by Talibans" and you will find several sources in Britain, including David Cameron's remarks on the matter. Sad to say, it seems that the only safe vehicle in Afghanistan is a B-52, as they don't have SAMs yet to hit those. Time to let them have at each other and whoever wins....wins. IMHOP
 

wb1895

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When I was in Iraq, we had to deal with EFP's "Explosive formed Projectile" These types of IED's are fully capable of penetrating the Armor of our MRAP's. The EFP's are much harder to manufacture, but very effective.
 

swbradley1

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What makes anyone think that an MRAP could not be defeated? I'm surprised it took the Taliban this long to do it.


From the article:

He added: “You can never armour a vehicle enough to withstand every kind of blast you can have. There is no way you can protect everyone, all of the time. To armour a vehicle from any blast would take 200 tonnes of armour.”
 

TehTDK

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Shaped charges is and well always be a preferred measure to beat armour. It just sucks that the taliban now has the knowledge and means to fabricate this kind of improvised munitions, but such is life. Adapt, overcome, Survive.
 

Vintage iron

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I was trained in explosives in the Marine Corp. there is only one defense from a shape charge and that is explosive armor. but explosive armor is a one time use. Shape charges can penetrate even the thickest armor.
 

B3.3T

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There have been MBTs sent sky high with buried IEDs, killing everyone, and this was many years ago. Shaped charges or simply enough of a charge will defeat anything. It is pure folly to believe any armor offers total protection.
 

M35A2-AZ

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We make better trucks and armor, then they make better explosives, then we upgrade or armor. Its what we have done for many years.
 

TehTDK

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There have been MBTs sent sky high with buried IEDs, killing everyone, and this was many years ago. Shaped charges or simply enough of a charge will defeat anything. It is pure folly to believe any armor offers total protection.
One of my military driving instructor has been on several tours into the sandbox and has been hit 4 times by IED's. Once in a Piranha/Stryker, once in a Leopard A2 MBT, and once in an MRAP Cougar and I cant remember what he was inside the 4th time. But 3 out of the 4 hits the vehicle they were in was NOT able to leave the hotspot on its own power or help. Effectively all 3 vehicles was scrappers. His latest hit was in an MRAP Cougar which was able to drive away from the blast and limb its way back home with not a single scratch on any of the occupants, but minor bruises etc.

But sadly yes the only "deterrent" to sharped charges are reactive armour, but that is expensive, heavy and as someone already pointed out, one time use only. That is unless we start talking about Chobham grade armour etc, but putting that kind of armour on a MRAP might be a bit too much, or simply too heavy or practical.
 

BKubu

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Even the Chobham armor on a tank like the M1A2 can be defeated. HEDELTA, on this list, drove an M1A1 in Iraq and was hit by an IED that destroyed the tank. Maybe, he'll chime in with his own war story.
 

Heath_h49008

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EFP/Shaped charges are not tough to make. Copper melts easily, and there are enough high explosives in most of these places in mines and shells for them to power them.

If they have more than a few dollars the Russians and our bankers the Chinese will sell them all they want factory made...
 

TehTDK

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Even the Chobham armor on a tank like the M1A2 can be defeated. HEDELTA, on this list, drove an M1A1 in Iraq and was hit by an IED that destroyed the tank. Maybe, he'll chime in with his own war story.
Chobham is the laminar armour construction used on the Challenger tanks, not sure what the American's call their variant or the germans theirs. But I was under the impression that the "sandwich" nature of the laminar armour would actually work as a deterrent against shaped charges etc, as some of the individual layers was NOT made of metalic layers and thus would not melt or burn by the molten metal stream.
 

Heath_h49008

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Ceramic layers combined with high mass layers. It disperses the molten jet of copper/etc on impact as well as resisting the actual force of the impact.

It's not a secret, just difficult to get right.
 

Scarecrow1

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Well the the fact that people getting blown to pieces isn't really news in any war. It doesn't take rocket science to blow crap up just a lot of explosives. It was said best by Einstein when he wrote for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The fact that our guys and gals blood being spilled is heart breaking but , putting them in anything and telling them they are safe is plain cruel. Your not safe in your own home. You go to war and you roll the dice with your life plain and simple. The best defense is not to be where it goes to pieces. All I want to hear from our people is a very clear BRING OUR PEOPLE HOME. That kinda said it all.............
 

TehTDK

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Ceramic layers combined with high mass layers. It disperses the molten jet of copper/etc on impact as well as resisting the actual force of the impact.

It's not a secret, just difficult to get right.
It is actually a secret ;). Or rather the actual true composition and how to get it right is :p. But watching a few youtube I guess I should correct myself. Chobham and its making was shared with the US by the UK, not sure if the same holds true with the Dorchester version that the british fielded on the Challenger Mk2's. And apparently the german Leopard 2, while having composite armour, its actually not Chobham/Dorchester, but something else all together.
 

wreckerman893

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While my unit was mobilizing National Guard and Reseve Soldiers I went to Fort Leonard Wood with my boss (Commanding General) to attend an IED conference. This was when the Iraqis were really doing a number on our vehicles with improvised weapons. At that time the MRAPs were just being fielded and were on their way to the war.
I saw videos and still pics (classified at that time) of battle damaged vehicles and there is no such thing as a free lunch. The bad guys figured out that with enough explosives you could take out an M1 Main Battle tank by burying the explosives and detonating them when the tank was on top of them. This resulted in catastropic damage and while the crew was protected from the blast and heat of an explosion the concussion and being flipped over in a 60 ton vehicle often resulted in the deaths of one or more of the crew.
Professional soldiers are often predictable.....it's the amatures that you have to watch out for.
 
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