Can’t get this to start…FIXED!!!

DaneGer21

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Had some time to kill this evening. I decided to check the basics, even though the previous owner said the IP had never been removed.

Since it’s easy to do a check and fairly quick, i decided to look at the IP timing to engine timing.

First I pulled the front valve cover to verify TDC on the correct stroke. Lined up the correct timing mark on the balancer and checked to make sure cylinder #1 int/ext valves were closed.

Next I removed the timing cover to look into the timing window on the IP itself. Verified timing mark is at pointer.

Lastly, even though it is not a true “timing” mark, I looked at the HH’s gear inside the shutoff cover. The red tooth is one tooth to the rear of the pointer, which from what I’ve read and am told is correct, because technically that red tooth ONLY lines up when removal is needed.

Also removed the delivery valve and spring, it moved freely and I also sprayed out the passages.

Good news, that stuff is all good

Unless for some odd reason after all these tries, I haven’t successfully engaged into the plunger sleeve/shutoff block with the little nipple.
 

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DaneGer21

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I hate to throw parts at this thing or anything for that matter, especially expensive ones. But at this point I am still stumped.

So, if you were a bettin’ man/woman, what would you start with…?

Replacing the HH?
Checking/Replacing the boost pump?
Removing IP for inspection?


Thanks!
 
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Floridianson

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Yes you will get fuel out of the top center cap but delivery valve could be stuck open. You said your good there. Timing looks spot on. As for the pin / fuel control unit getting into the sleeve in most cases it is not a problem. That saying the sleeve is floating free and sitting on the bottom of the head so to speak. So when we install the fuel control unit assembly the arm of the fuel control should be around the 4 o clock position because the sleeve is in the cut off position. So arm back and pin horizontal. Now just spit balling wonder if a complete disassembly of all the ports on the head an a careful cleaning. Not only delivery valve but all six of the smaller ports that are in the head? Do not want to get into a pissing match about the red scribe not being a true timing mark but we are checking it's position when we check timing. If HB was on it's correct mark and advance window was on it's mark but head was three teeth off it's mark then we would say timing is off. My .02 it is a timing reference mark not only telling us when we can remove the head but also if it was installed it correct. There have been reports where head would not come out when red scribe was on mark. This is because the head timing was off when installed. Then we have to move crank / IP just a little bit one way or the other to get the cut out on the quill shaft to line up for removal.
 
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Floridianson

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The delivery valve is what kicked my butt on the last non runner Deuce I bought. Went thru everything, but it still wouldn't start. Removed the delivery valve, spring & cleaned the seat & off she went.
Yep that was my fault when we removed the head I should have just taken your head with me home and pulled it completely apart and good cleaning. Since then we have become GOOD friends and I regret not taking charge of the head and it being less work for both of us but we got it running.
 
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fleetmech

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Have you confirmed that the plunger is actually moving / that the entire pump is actually spinning? Weve been through most of the normal and less normal stuff it seems, perhaps the pump cam is worn out, or the pump seized and broke its shaft? The plunger can be accessed through the center cap, you can put a wooden dowel or brass drift through the hole to see if things are moving up and down. I dont have it on hand, but im sure there is a travel spec that could be checked with a dial indicator, especially if the travel seems minimal. I too have not checked the pressure of the booster pump when cranking, but I think it should well have increased when you fired it on the starting fluid. Since the booster pump is run off the main IP, a broken drive would explain that lack of buildup. Old school Stanadynes, in particular, had failure points machined into the pump drive shaft so it would snap if the pump seized and protect the engine gear train. Im not sure if this pump has such a 'safety' but the symptoms are the same either way.
 

DaneGer21

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Have you confirmed that the plunger is actually moving / that the entire pump is actually spinning? Weve been through most of the normal and less normal stuff it seems, perhaps the pump cam is worn out, or the pump seized and broke its shaft? The plunger can be accessed through the center cap, you can put a wooden dowel or brass drift through the hole to see if things are moving up and down. I dont have it on hand, but im sure there is a travel spec that could be checked with a dial indicator, especially if the travel seems minimal. I too have not checked the pressure of the booster pump when cranking, but I think it should well have increased when you fired it on the starting fluid. Since the booster pump is run off the main IP, a broken drive would explain that lack of buildup. Old school Stanadynes, in particular, had failure points machined into the pump drive shaft so it would snap if the pump seized and protect the engine gear train. Im not sure if this pump has such a 'safety' but the symptoms are the same either way.
I can confirm the IP is spinning when checking it’s timing.

I can confirm nothing is stuck as far as the plunger and HH are concerned.

I can confirm the plunger does in fact move up and down while cranking, and the gear is spinning inside the HH.(not sure how much or if correct but it does move up/down and gear spins)

I cannot yet confirm if the booster pump has issues or not. (I am close though. Motor mounts are loose and engine is ready to be moved so I can access the booster)
 

DaneGer21

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Finished what I was doing to check the booster pump. It was intact and fairly clean. Nothing seemed abnormal. I reinstalled; crank no start still. Still no fuel from the injector ports on top of the HH while cranking.

As of now I’m still stumped…
 

DaneGer21

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I got up early this morning and drove a little over an hour to pick up a HH from a guy I found on Facebook. The plunger was slightly stuck so I cleaned it up and got everything moving with very little effort. This head seems “tighter” than mine. Like maybe mine is worn out and this one still has good clearances inside.

Well after about an hour and a half I had it swapped over. Turned on the power, cracked a few lines to confirm I had fuel, and then I hit the start button. Crank NO start. Tried about 5 times, nothing. Used ether 3 times, it would burn the ether but immediately shut off, so another words NO start.

Cracked and removed #5 injector line from the “new” HH, cranked engine, no fuel.

After all this cranking, fuel pressure in the secondary filter never rose above 8psi on my gauge. But last night when I removed the booster pump it all seemed good and tight inside.

Starting to think the next part I buy is a $1 - “For Sale” sign…ugh!
 

DaneGer21

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After swapping in a different HH this morning and having the exact same issue, I’m starting to think it’s gotta be something within the pump. I think it may have been mentioned above about the lobe of the cam that the button/plunger ride on may be worn.

Does anyone have a spec of how much lift the plunger should have?

Or is anyone willing to somehow install a dial indicator with a rod and measure the lift/stroke of the plunger?
 
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cattlerepairman

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I cannot even imagine how frustrating this is for you, but my hat is off to you for documenting your journey so well. This thread is going to help many others. Because, at the end, your truck WILL start.....

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
 
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DaneGer21

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I am new to trouble shooting the Deuce, but could one of the rubber / plastic fuel supply hoses be collapsed internally causing a restriction?
It’s definitely possible. I think I have decent flow ONLY because I’m getting flow back to the tank via the return. I at least know I have fuel everywhere I should,it’s just not leaving like it should…if this makes sense.
 

DaneGer21

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Creston, Ohio
I cannot even imagine how frustrating this is for you, but my hat is off to you fir documenting your journey so well. This thread is going to help many others. Because, at the end, your truck WILL start.....

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
I appreciate that. I got frustrated this morning and had to walk away. I blew leaves all afternoon and let it sit for a bit. But I’ve at least been brainstorming which I think is more exhausting haha
 

fleetmech

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Sorry if you've answered any of this before but... have you confirmed fuel is 100% getting to the injection pump inlet in good quantity? Do you get any fuel even drooling out of the delivery valve hole if you crank it with the dv removed? when you changed the HH, has it been full of fuel?

If we now assume that the pump is spinning as it should, we need to ascertain how far fuel is making it through the system/ pump. Even if the lobe is severely worn, fuel should be circulating through almost everywhere, especially with the injector lines removed. I would suspect that even at lift/ booster pump pressure fuel should at least be making its way tot he dv area. If its not, either the rack is jammed or held 'off' or there is a major plug internally. if the whole thing is full to the brim with fuel, then its either not building even the slightest pressure, or its blowing off the fuel, maybe through the overflow and into the return.
 
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