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Changing caster angle solved problems with G-177 tires

gringeltaube

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Sorry to hear! The pins I have checked are some good steel but not hardened; you could work on them with a good file. Which doesn't mean that there may be different batches out there...

Sounds to me that you may have to go the longer route now, pressing the stump all the way down and then fish it out with a magnet or flexible grab/pick-up tool...



G.
 

tobyS

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Are you sure it's not worth leaving in place and weld a couple of blocks on the side of the perch to keep it from going sideways? Like a 3/8" x 3/8" x 2" on each side.

The nut and weld would be my next approach, not ruining a dremel trying to get a big enough hole. You'll also get grinding matls. in the axle. If that dosen't work, then take it apart and fish out the block that you drive through.
 

Valence

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Are you sure it's not worth leaving in place and weld a couple of blocks on the side of the perch to keep it from going sideways? Like a 3/8" x 3/8" x 2" on each side.

The nut and weld would be my next approach, not ruining a dremel trying to get a big enough hole. You'll also get grinding matls. in the axle. If that dosen't work, then take it apart and fish out the block that you drive through.
Using a hand held propane torch (you know, on of those blue bottle torches) to heat up the surrounding axle housing and a 4lb sledge, I still was not able to move the pin any. I used a can of compressed air to try and cool down the pin too (I turned the can upside-down to spray out the colder propellant).

So I'm kind of with tobyS on this one.

HOWEVER, first, I'm going to purchase an air chisel (my toolbox could sure use one...) and I will try using that to get the pin out. I will also maybe rent a torch to apply heat to the surrounding axle housing. My handheld propane torch probably does not put off enough BTUs and the big heat sink of the whole axle housing is able to bleed off the heat. I just do not want to damage anything as an amateur playing with fire around so much potentially flammable substances.
 
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Valence

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Last week I purchased a yellow bottle torch (Max/Pro gas). I believe it was able to put more heat to the axle housing than the blue propane torch, but not too much to hurt my axle seal about 1 foot away (my opinion). I also purchased an air chisel (or air hammer). I heated up the axle housing surrounding the pin then blew the cold compressed air from those air duster can (I actually turned it upside down so the colder propellant would come out) onto the pin itself.

I don't know if I just have zero skill in this matter but that was also met with defeat. About 1/4" of the air chisel tip was obliterated and only small rounding created at the top of the pin.

Yes, the air chisel got away from me a few times as you can see in the picture. Well, at least I tried.

2015-09-17 17.48.40.jpg FullSizeRender.jpg

I bolted the leaf springs/perches back to the front axle and figured with a prayer I could drive on nice paved roads with only 1 pin the 16 miles to Boyce Equipment. I did turn off the air-assist steering since the air cylinder would have pushed on the assembly with no pin. For the record, I arrived at Boyce with no incident and no shifting of the spring assembly on the axle (I marked the perch location on the front of the axle and it had not moved at all). I left the truck with them about 12:30 pm on Friday. Hopefully they get to the truck Monday (tomorrow).

I believe Boyce is just going to weld retaining blocks on either side of the perch. I hope they do decent welds.
 
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Valence

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Boyce Equipment just welded the retaining blocks on either side without dismantling the U-bolts. Should hold. Though I'm not an expert but the weld doesn't look very deep or high onto the added block, and it would have been better had they welded on at the front and back of the added block. But I'm not rock crawling my truck so it should be find for many years.

Apologies as apparently I only took one photo.

2015-09-21 17.44.11.jpg

One observation though:
I appreciate that they spray painted the added metal blocks and welds, but you'd think at a place like Boyce they'd at least carry matching 383 Green. Nope. It's just Olive Drab (hard to tell in this high contrast picture). In my opinion, true workmanship is in the details. My OCD will bother me until some time I paint it with my Rapco matching 383 Green.
 
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tobyS

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That will hold fine. Tell us if you can feel a difference in it's steering.
 

Valence

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You bet.

So, to recap the whole thing. On August 08th, 2015 I had my stock NDT 9.00R20s dismounted and Goodyear G177s (11.00R20s) mounted in their place, reusing the stock wheels. I maintained duals in the rear despite the fact that the tires are rated for enough to be run as singles even on the rear axles.

I had clearance issues with the rear tires rubbing the trunnion cap and bolts. This was solved by adding a 1/4" spacer plate in the rear (3/8" or even 1/2" thick spacer plate probably would have been a little better but it depends on the length of your studs), but also important was changing out the trunnion cap hex head bolts being rubbed against, to bolts with rounded heads and allen wrench centers.

(Please remember that at this time I had the larger tires with the stock 0.187 ratio speedometer adapter so the quoted miles per hour is technically not accurate)
I only drove one trip (~60 miles) with un-modified front caster angle. At "speed" on the interstate (a good road), about 50 MPH, I did not have too much problem steering, but I grew uncomfortable with the touchy steering and the amount of concentration required to keep the truck centered in my lane as it still wanted to wander easily. When I exited the interstate to a lower quality 2-lane side road, I had to reduce my speed to ~40mph (the posted speed limit was still higher) otherwise I would have easily ended up off the road. In all honesty, I probably should have driven still slower. This required most of my concentration and effort in maintaining control of the truck. At speeds lower than ~25-30mph I really didn't notice the issue.

I then proceeded to remove my front leaf spring perches and determined which perch I had via the 2nd picture in peashooter's post here (I used the measured thicknesses as my guide):
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...-G-177-tires&p=1497451&viewfull=1#post1497451

I believe I had the 2nd from the top perch, or a 4 degree perch. As shown in the first picture in the above peashooter post, I removed ~5/32" from the front perch surface. Not mentioned previously was removing 5/32" from only the front of the perch didn't let it sit perfectly flat on top of the axle. If you notice in the above linked peashooter post, it appears both sides were milled some. I just said "close enough" and bolted the u-bolts around it. I still have the stock leaf spring locator pin on the driver's side of the axle, but the passenger side had retaining blocks welded to the top of the axle housing on either side of the leaf spring perch, and an immovable remnant of the original pin still in the axle housing. I plan to keep the reused air-assist u-bolts (they were new this year, put on and taken off once), but I have new u-bolts for the driver's side as currently they are, presumably, the original ones from 1972.

The drive:
On my way to Boyce Equipment for them to weld the blocks around the passenger leaf spring perch was my first time driving with the modified perches. It should be noted that at this time my air-assist steering was turned off. This was the first time I drove the truck with the air-assist turned off since it was installed earlier this year. I immediately noticed how quickly the tires returned to center. I did not fight the truck to keep it in lane and the ride was improved on the new tires.

With the leaf spring perch secure I turned the air-assist back on. Most of the automatic return to center is now gone. I actually noticed this when I first put on the air-assist when still running NDTs. I strongly believe this is an artifact or trade off of the air-assist system and not of the caster or tire change.

I drove the truck to work yesterday and down an extremely bumpy road at 40-45 MPH. I did not fight the truck. Sure, I bounced around but my tires were not trying to follow grooves or even trying to turn. I bounced and let the truck ride rough but I maintained control of it.

The G177s are easier to steer than the stock NDTs, of course, further improved at low speeds by air-assist and should be easier on the assist since the tires are easier to turn! On concrete in my smoother concrete garage, I can turn the tires from lock to lock while stationary. Put a piece of cardboard under 1 tire and I can do this 1 handed.

Reminder, none of my experience has yet to be off pavement.

Verdict:
Only one thing could please me more about these Goodyear G177 tires, that they did not pick up rocks in the tread so easily. I am actually surprised at how much I like the tires as I REALLY liked how the Michelin XL or XLZ tread pattern looked an planned to go for those tires for about 2 years.

Caster adjustment was definitely needed and every person doing a similar upgrade as I should absolutely plan on it as a required task (or investigation at minimum). I would council great care in removing your leaf spring perches and when removing material. If it is daunting, perhaps go the non-permanent change shim route and add a shim. I believe earlier in this thread it was recommended a 1/4" to 1/16" shim (1/4" toward the rear, 1/16" toward the front), but the reader should verify that.
 
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So I'll be the next to undertake this project. Picked up 11 G177s mounted on 5 ton rims and will hopefully be switching them over soon.
Few questions.
Valence, what did you use for wheel spacers? Custom built or sourced?
Has anyone tried the 2 degree spring perch mod vs a wedge shim or milling it to zero pitch and if so what worked better?
Would it harm anything or negatively effect the ride if I was to do this mod BEFORE installing the G177s?
Thanks -GM
 

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Valence

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So I'll be the next to undertake this project. Picked up 11 G177s mounted on 5 ton rims and will hopefully be switching them over soon.
Few questions.
Valence, what did you use for wheel spacers? Custom built or sourced?
Cool! I hope you like 'em as much as I do mine!

I bought wheel spacers (for the rear) from Kryptonite Kustoms (I ordered 1/4" thick spacer plates but maybe 3/8" thick would have been better. Maybe 1/2" would have been even better, but I don't recall if there was enough thread space on the studs):
http://www.kryptonitekustoms.com/product_p/kk-rwrockspacer.htm

You can read more in depth about them on my thread, posts #13-25 (the meat of it regarding the spacer plate)
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...20s-(dualed)&p=1752369&viewfull=1#post1752369

And I wish I could help on your other questions but I don't know enough...
 
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Valence

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Wasn't sure if that was going to leave me enough room to work but yeah that makes sense!
It is tight, and be careful as always when lifting a vehicle!


I think this is posted earlier in this thread, but this is from when I did mine and I had to scoot the axle over to gain access to the locator pin I broke. Obviously you won't need to go to this extreme and can probably (and should) just do one side at a time.

2015-09-10 19.17.03.jpg

This picture has nothing to do with caster adjustment, but you can see where I put the jack stands under the leaf springs:
2015-09-11 14.36.13 HDR.jpg
 
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rustystud

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Actually the safest way to use the jack-stands is to place them on the frame and just let the axle hang down. The springs can "shift" and then the whole truck will come down on you. You will need some 12ton stands to do this though ( their taller), or you must use some "cribbing" for the jack-stands to sit on.
 

Menaces Nemesis

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davesgmc

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to revive this tread. acquired one of the deuces we put the 177's on quite a while back, it hasn't had the cast mods, it was disabled by some scrappers steaking all the copper out of it, lines, and battery cables etc. so i had to tow bar it home, let me tell you, that's some scary S***! every turn the wheel would immediate cock to the opposite way of the turn and lock, would have to get out, straighten it up and proceed. trying to pull into my gravel drive way, did same thing the front tire dug in the gravel and i tried to pout it in low, lock in ft axle and man handle it up the drive way, nope, wasn't happening. it dug in, and put about a foot deep rut right in the middle of the road. (maybe that'll slow the speeders down a bit around here.
after i get it running ill ahve to check the caster and maybe see how it ride, hopefully i didnt bend the front axle when it locked up and tried to pull it against its will
 
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