Colorado Bill SB19-054 RE: (Former) Military Vehicle Motor Vehicle Regulation

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jeffhuey1n

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Please help me understand this a bit more. If I decide to drive my gun truck War Wagon to Fort Collins or Greeley Colorado from Cheyenne Wyoming, what will happen? Will they try to ticket me? Maybe try to confiscate it? Any MV shows south of the Wyoming border have become off limits to me? I really dislike politics. :soapbox::rant:
 

simp5782

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Please help me understand this a bit more. If I decide to drive my gun truck War Wagon to Fort Collins or Greeley Colorado from Cheyenne Wyoming, what will happen? Will they try to ticket me? Maybe try to confiscate it? Any MV shows south of the Wyoming border have become off limits to me? I really dislike politics. :soapbox::rant:
That would be the freedom of movement clause under the privileges and immunity clause of the constitution laid out in Paul v Virginia 1869 stating you have the right of free ingress and egress from states" it would also fall under the association right of they attempted to involve it.

Like I said earlier I know of atleast several courts that have ruled that it is unconstitutional for the government to regulate what types of personal use vehicles citizens drive based on their outward appearance represents a govermoment trying to subvert personal rights" proctor v coral springs
 

simp5782

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I don't know right off who the new boss is at DOR, they all changed when the Dems took control of the whole state after the last election. It is DOR's interpretation and implementation of the law that is the issue. They have sent guidance to all the county clerks in the state as to the current implementation of not following the law as written. My guess is if the director is not aware of it, someone high up made the decision based on their own uneducated desires. If going to the top and asking "WTF"? doesn't work,maybe an interpretation from the new Dem. Attorney General who has zero court experience, followed by contacting legislators and maybe something that has to go before the courts. Anyway I see it either it could be a quick fix based on a mistake and reversing their decision or a long drawn out process based on rumblings I hear from the guys working around these guys and the lefty agenda that they are pushing in spite of the populace.
You just need to file a case vs the state and file for an injunction against it and let it be played in public light. They have to acknowledge it then they cant just play it off when there are hearings.
 

Awesomeness

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Nope. CO DMV internal memo says not to title or register any military vehicle, including historical interest MV. Here's a screenshot of the memo and a screenshot of a close up of the portion that kills the historical ones also...

View attachment 769714

View attachment 769715
Where can I find a better quality copy of this, than this tiny cell phone screenshot?
 
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Livermore, Colorado
I spent some time researching the state government here and it seems that once a bill becomes law then a different set of issues also comes up. It then passes to any agency that is tasked with enforcement of said law. The directors or executives of that branch of government must then make interpretations, rules, directives, orders for the minions of that branch to then execute in the field with the citizen end of the interface. In this case the motor vehicle department. The executive in charge has made interpretations of the law and ordered all county clerks to then direct the individuals behind the counter not to allow on road titles to be issued to ex military vehicles, or registered and plated. Also has required them to issue a recall on existing titles and have them reissued as off road only. they are to treated like an ATV for practical purposes. Not sure if anyone has noticed but you can not drive an atv on a gravel county road much less anything paved. The list of forest service roads that allow atvs is pretty short as well. So if you want to do a parade you need a special parade permit and you have to trailer it to and from. Wyoming is a bit different in that they can drive and plate atvs for on road use if they meet certain lighting and safety requirements.

The point being that in Colorado the law has passed already and is now in the hands of a different branch of government. The rule making section. Also has now passed into the hands of the enforcement section aka LEO.

The only way to make an effective change to all of this is in the law making section. You could try a legal case but you would need someone actually personally affected by the new law to challenge in in court. They would need to be willing to take this on and possibly foot the bill, time and trouble over a very extended period of time in all likelihood.
 

marchplumber

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Thanks for the input! The more info, the better we can sit rep. Every state is just a hop, skip, and a jump away from this possibility.
 

41cl8m5

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I have been somewhat included it the exchange of information as this legislation got started and moved though the process to become law. As the Secretary of the Military Vehicle Collector's of Colorado I have personally emailed, through the group, my thoughts about how the law would be interpreted by the DMV. The original text looked fairly good but as the process went, changes were made for reasons only those that made them only know. I believe the changes may be do to straight not knowing the whole story. Enough about the legislation.

Now, as others have said the DMV is run by the Department of Revenue (DOR) and they interprete what the law says and tell the County DMV how to proceed. Ya'll have seen the memo/ letter. So the DMV is now denying renewal of registrations of current former military vehicles. This is because the registrations are for on road use. Enough about the two agencies involved and what is reality at this moment.

Okay, what can be done? Well, the President of our club has a date set for a meeting with the Director of the DOR. He has talked to that person by phone about how the way this legislation is being interpreted and is not within the wording or the intent of the bill sponsors, one was a republican the other a democratic. This bill passed both houses with all yes and just one vote as present. Hopefully the results of the meeting with the DOR will change how the DMV is doing business with Former Military Vehicles/Historical Military Vehicles.

I understand everyone feelngs about this topic. It's not for me to tell anyone what they should or should not do but at this point, all should stay rock steady and stand-by for now until new and hopefully good information is in hand.

Sitting a waiting sucks
 

USAFSS-ColdWarrior

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Please help me understand this a bit more. If I decide to drive my gun truck War Wagon to Fort Collins or Greeley Colorado from Cheyenne Wyoming, what will happen? Will they try to ticket me? Maybe try to confiscate it? Any MV shows south of the Wyoming border have become off limits to me? I really dislike politics. :soapbox::rant:
This is an excellent question.

And the following is a reasonable application of a law that would, in application, seem to resolve your hypothetical problem.

HOWEVER, keep reading below please.

That would be the freedom of movement clause under the privileges and immunity clause of the constitution laid out in Paul v Virginia 1869 stating you have the right of free ingress and egress from states" it would also fall under the association right of they attempted to involve it.

Like I said earlier I know of atleast several courts that have ruled that it is unconstitutional for the government to regulate what types of personal use vehicles citizens drive based on their outward appearance represents a govermoment trying to subvert personal rights" proctor v coral springs
Simp,
Thanks for that answer.

However, there is a more applicable and DIRECT addressing of this situation as follows....



EVERY one of the 50 States in the United States is a CO-SIGNER on a US Department of Transportation Agreement - called a RECIPROCAL AGREEMENT - with each and every one of the other 49 "United" States.
This RECIPROCAL AGREEMENT asserts and GUARANTEES that a vehicle registered in one State can freely travel into, through, or about ANY of the other 49 States so long as it is LEGALLY REGISTERED (and inspected, insured, etc.) in the one State in which in which it "resides". This very same RECIPROCAL AGREEMENT assures the same acceptability to the licensing of drivers and their ability to operate "out-of-state" vehicles across State's jurisdictions without harassment or penalties/consequences.




POINT:
This doesn't not mean that I wouldn't get pulled over in Colorado driving my LEGALLY registered in Texas NO-TAGS Former Military Deuce and a Half if a LEO observed that I display no license plates. He would, however, have NO BASIS for the issuance of a ticket since my registrations specifies "License Tag Number: NO TAGS"​; and upon that verification would have to wave me off.
 
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coachgeo

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Please help me understand this a bit more. If I decide to drive my gun truck War Wagon to Fort Collins or Greeley Colorado from Cheyenne Wyoming, what will happen? Will they try to ticket me? Maybe try to confiscate it? Any MV shows south of the Wyoming border have become off limits to me? I really dislike politics. :soapbox::rant:
appears this is only about Title and registration of military vehicles by CO owners. If you have plates from different state your fine as you drive thru
 

coachgeo

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..Okay, what can be done? Well, the President of our club has a date set for a meeting with the Director of the DOR. He has talked to that person by phone about how the way this legislation is being interpreted and is not within the wording or the intent of the bill sponsors, one was a republican the other a democratic. This bill passed both houses with all yes and just one vote as present. Hopefully the results of the meeting with the DOR will change how the DMV is doing business with Former Military Vehicles/Historical Military Vehicles. ...
Rob Pickering and Jay Couch should be part of that meeting. They both build Expedition trucks based at times on ex-military vehicles. Also Awesomeness and BuiltMFG in here whom are both building a personal Expedition trucks based on an LMTV.
 
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coachgeo

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Somewhere we had another thread going on this topic a while back. Here's my take on this new legislation.It all started with a farm implement company in SE Colorado that buys / sells surplus military vehicles for agricultural usage and modifications to them for that purpose. The bill defines surplus military vehicles as off-highway vehicles for the purposes of titling these vehicles and of using these vehicles off road. These changes in the definition do the following:

  • A surplus military vehicle may be titled as an off-highway vehicle;
  • A surplus military vehicle is not registered as a motor vehicle;
  • A surplus military vehicle is treated as an off-highway vehicle for the purposes of on-road use and off-road use.
These changes do not apply to military vehicles that are valued for historical purposes. Those that are maintained, marked as previously used by the military and privately owned and maintained for their historical value can still be titled, licensed and driven on public streets in Colorado and you don't have to bolt license plates on them as it distracts from their military appearance.

Two separate categories of vehicles; historical ans street legal, off road and agricultural use. I guess some folks can find themselves in no-mans land where they have a truck that is no longer really looking marked or maintained in military appearance and maybe the state could balk at allowing a zombie apocalypse truck to have license plates, you never know about these rumors.

Several Expedition truck builders in CO use ex-military trucks for the base. So do guys doing their own builds..
 
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41cl8m5

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What makes this topic even more complex is in the state of Colorado if the Former Military Vehicle has all the correct markings presented as a Historical Military Vehicle the vehicle is not required to place the plates on them. They must be with them and "if a peace officer inquires or asks to see them the operator is required to surrender them for inspection." Now some of our members put them on so as not to be pulled over in the first place. I choose to keep them with the registration and the proof of insurance card in a packet. I have had to further inform some cops about the statutes and I usually keep a copy of it and that law to give to them and ask them to share the information with their group of course being nice and friendly about it. Most of the time they are cooperative and say things like I didn't know. When that law was enacted it took a while for it to be realized by the law inforcers. New laws can be a hassle and yes my interest is the historical part with the MVCC, we do static displays and parades and other events to help benefit groups like all the veterans groups out there.

Now "retailers", "wholesales", "re-manufactures", "dealers" like dealerships, are all in business to do what it is they do and maybe the guys doing professional conversations have a way to make a work-a-round work for them. It's the privet owner that made big modifications or painted their vehicle a color other than what it would have been in the service that is in a pinch at this point. Right now everyone that resides in the state that has a Historical/Former Military Vehicle and is titled in the state could be in jeopardy.

Thinking on doing a title out of Colorado and you live in Colorado, there is a law on that to. Years ago folks buying RVs were doing just that to get out of paying the taxes and fees on titling and registration. Also out of staters that have moved here and you don't get their vehicle registered in 3 months and are caught the fine is very big, usually more than just getting it done. Cop cars out here have on their light bars cameras that are hooked up to computers that instantly relay information to the officer if there is a problem with the plate this recognition technology has the ability to see the state of the plate and has seen the out of state plate before and the timeline. The **** system is so good that I was pulled over in my car just because the system said to the cop my car is not red is the registration say it should be. Well as I explained to that one I bought the car brand new and Dodge called it "deep lava red", it's so dark red it almost looks purple or even brown depending on the sunlight. The cop said I need to go to the DMV to get it changed, the DMV said no I Do Not. Talk about different groups not talking to one another.
 

jimk

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Nope. CO DMV internal memo says not to title or register any military vehicle, including historical interest MV. Here's a screenshot of the memo and a screenshot of a close up of the portion that kills the historical ones also...
<cut>View attachment 769715
The box (historical...not to be titled or registered) seems to contradict the "these changes do not apply...historical" in requirements above. Is the Colorado DOR exceeding their authority?

What other states are currently restricting registration of FMVs?
 

simp5782

My safe word is Pork and Beans.
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What makes this topic even more complex is in the state of Colorado if the Former Military Vehicle has all the correct markings presented as a Historical Military Vehicle the vehicle is not required to place the plates on them. They must be with them and "if a peace officer inquires or asks to see them the operator is required to surrender them for inspection." Now some of our members put them on so as not to be pulled over in the first place. I choose to keep them with the registration and the proof of insurance card in a packet. I have had to further inform some cops about the statutes and I usually keep a copy of it and that law to give to them and ask them to share the information with their group of course being nice and friendly about it. Most of the time they are cooperative and say things like I didn't know. When that law was enacted it took a while for it to be realized by the law inforcers. New laws can be a hassle and yes my interest is the historical part with the MVCC, we do static displays and parades and other events to help benefit groups like all the veterans groups out there.

Now "retailers", "wholesales", "re-manufactures", "dealers" like dealerships, are all in business to do what it is they do and maybe the guys doing professional conversations have a way to make a work-a-round work for them. It's the privet owner that made big modifications or painted their vehicle a color other than what it would have been in the service that is in a pinch at this point. Right now everyone that resides in the state that has a Historical/Former Military Vehicle and is titled in the state could be in jeopardy.

Thinking on doing a title out of Colorado and you live in Colorado, there is a law on that to. Years ago folks buying RVs were doing just that to get out of paying the taxes and fees on titling and registration. Also out of staters that have moved here and you don't get their vehicle registered in 3 months and are caught the fine is very big, usually more than just getting it done. Cop cars out here have on their light bars cameras that are hooked up to computers that instantly relay information to the officer if there is a problem with the plate this recognition technology has the ability to see the state of the plate and has seen the out of state plate before and the timeline. The **** system is so good that I was pulled over in my car just because the system said to the cop my car is not red is the registration say it should be. Well as I explained to that one I bought the car brand new and Dodge called it "deep lava red", it's so dark red it almost looks purple or even brown depending on the sunlight. The cop said I need to go to the DMV to get it changed, the DMV said no I Do Not. Talk about different groups not talking to one another.
That last part about the getting pulled over is called profiling and cant be done on the outward appearance of someone or what they are driving. He was just looking for an excuse to maybe find something else. Something similar happened here. Guy in a marijuana green crown vic with pot leaves in the back window and it said "Mr pure" and then the license plate read "RidnDrty" he got pulled over anywhere from 4 to 10 times a day usually. Serious profiling but that is what he wanted
 

Reworked LMTV

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Our military drives these vehicles on the road. They have to meet DOT standards. I have not heard a single legislative explanation for essentially banning vehicles. Anyone legislative justification this in any state?
 

coachgeo

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The box (historical...not to be titled or registered) seems to contradict the "these changes do not apply...historical" in requirements above. Is the Colorado DOR exceeding their authority?

What other states are currently restricting registration of FMVs?
MO is making it massively difficult now too.

Was pointed out by another person that for a long while you could NOT register all (or some?) military rigs in CO. The legislation; that just got rewrote to disallow them, is what originally (for a few years at least) ... allowed them to be registered in CO.
 
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