Custom trailer brake help

treeguy

New member
605
2
0
Location
Fort One Bay - Cape Cod, MA
I am in the mental designing stages of a TOP SECRET project here at Fort One Bay and need some suggestions. From looking under the truck, the deuce brakes are activated by the pedal putting pressure into the hydrolic resivoir (sorry for the spelling, I can't get the spell check to work for me). This in turn puts hydrolic pressure to ? the other unit which activates the air boost and then gives you higher hyd. pressure to the axles. Fewww!

So, how do I set up /ahhhemmm/...........a donor deuce brake booster to receive air from my service glad hand to activate the hyd pack and intern activate the brakes (if yall know what I'm getting at)

Or should I junk the donor deuce pack and install a M105 pack and just connect the hyd. brake line to run to the back end? Will the M105 pack generate enough power to handle the dual axle suspension truck.

Also what is the point of the Emergency glad hand connection if all the MV trailers will roll without air pressure like a semi tractor set up? For my project thats how I'd want it, but no, I don't want to go thru the hassle of using big rig trailer axles. Too much modification.

Just looking for some suggestions so I can get some sleep tonight. Thanks, Fort One Bay OUT!
 

KsM715

Well-known member
5,150
136
63
Location
St George Ks
Also what is the point of the Emergency glad hand connection if all the MV trailers will roll without air pressure like a semi tractor set up? For my project thats how I'd want it, but no, I don't want to go thru the hassle of using big rig trailer axles. Too much modification.

QUOTE]


The Emergency air supplies air to the small air tank on the trailer. That air is what runs the brakes. The service air from the truck is just a signal (if you will) to operate the brakes on the trailer.


As for your original question, If you do a search for towing a deuce with a deuce there are threads about hooking airlines into the "air-pack". That would be the second brake thingy you were talking about. The first one is the master cylinder.


Edit: searched and found this: http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce-modification-hot-rodding/23611-airpack-modification-towing.html
 
Last edited:

treeguy

New member
605
2
0
Location
Fort One Bay - Cape Cod, MA
"If you do a search for towing a deuce with a deuce there are threads about hooking airlines into the "air-pack". That would be the second brake thingy you were talking about. The first one is the master cylinder." QUOTE

Right, I searched around and could only find nice pictures of this type of trailer set up but I'll try again.

"The Emergency air supplies air to the small air tank on the trailer. That air is what runs the brakes. The service air from the truck is just a signal (if you will) to operate the brakes on the trailer." QUOTE

Thank you for that info, that explains it, GREAT!

My other thought would be to take the hand brake off of the X-fer case and bolt it to the intermediate input flange. Oh dang, I was going to take out those 3rd members AGHHHHHHH. I'll have to come up with plan B.
 

treeguy

New member
605
2
0
Location
Fort One Bay - Cape Cod, MA
Thanks for that thread link. It sounds like if I remove the J pipe from the back of the air pack and attach an air hose there and run it up to the front with a glad hand it should work. Then I'd run an air line from my trucks pass. side glad hand back to the trailers air tanks to supply them with air.

I don't know, after thinking about this something seems fishy. Why do I think that if I take off the J pipe and connect - that I am removing the air source from the on board tanks. That is not what I want to do. And do I still need the master cylinder or ........ yea I guess because it has the filler cap and if I removed it I'd have no way to add fluid. The linked thread from above seems to lead you to believe that their set up just utilizes the existing fluid in the air pack and brake lines. This is because the mod. to the J pipe excludes the activation of the master cylinder when they use their set up.

More research!
 

KsM715

Well-known member
5,150
136
63
Location
St George Ks
Well without letting us in on your TOP SECRET plan its going to hard to talk you thru it. :p

Good luck with your research and let us know what you come up with.
 

trukhead

New member
729
5
0
Location
dane/wi
Brake Activation

Your reference to hydraulics to the rear indicated to me you perhaps intend to activate the hydraulic portion of the brake set up on the trailer. This dilemma perplexed me until I stumbled upon this device:

DEXTER Electric / Hydraulic Drum Brake Actuator #K71-650-00

It is operated by a typical solid state 12 volt brake controller. I thought about just tapping off a 12 volt battery. Just make sure you USE AN ISOLATED GROUND OR USE THE BATTERY GROUNDED TO THE CHASSIS to avoid an internal dead short.

The use of an electric controller allows the versatility of using trailers of electric or hydraulic brakes with this activator.

I am considering this for a flat bed 5 ton trailer. I will use the activator to operate the drum brakes and remove the air activation components of the systems.

I have had complete success with electric controllers in wet conditions due to the fact that I run ground wires form the battery to the trailer connector to the chassis and to the controller in 12 volt exclusive vehicle systems. Again consider voltages and isolated grounds in the circuits.

:soapbox: fat lady sings
 
Last edited:

powerhouseduece

Active member
1,440
3
38
Location
Pasadena, Md
Why not set it up like a m1061? It has (basically) 2 m105 master cylinders and a single air tank. Just rob the safety valve, tank and actuators of some donor m105's? To **** with the headache of switching to electronics.
 

jaxsof

New member
586
15
0
Location
Dundalk, MD
...and if you have an "emergency" where the air lines are seperated from the towing vehicle, the trailer brakes will apply by themselves stopping the trailer before it has a much better chance of ending up in someones living room.
 

SCSG-G4

PSVB 3003
Steel Soldiers Supporter
4,999
2,031
113
Location
Lexington, South Carolina
Since you are talking about using the back part of a deuce frame as a trailer, you need to talk to the folks that have converted the back half of an M109 into a trailer camper. Two that I know of are neilhenrix and mdmorgan. I've seen them in person at the GA and VA rallys so I know they have solved your question.2cents
 

treeguy

New member
605
2
0
Location
Fort One Bay - Cape Cod, MA
"Why not set it up like a m1061? It has (basically) 2 m105 master cylinders and a single air tank. Just rob the safety valve, tank and actuators of some donor m105's?" QUOTE

Right, are the 105's powerfull enough, and why did you say 2 master cylinders? Are you saying to have one per side?

"the trailer brakes will apply by themselves " QUOTE

This is what I'm looking for and also so when the trailer is parked alone the wheels won't turn. So how is this going to be accomplished? If I use 105 master cylinders and the air supply to the tank is removed isn't the tank going to dump and the trailer will still free wheel?

Question - When disconecting the glad hand from any trailer (the one on my truck marked emergency - goes to trailer air tank) I get it that you'd have to close the truck valve but is there a check valve on the trailer side to the tank so it won't dump all its air? I suspect that if it didn't when you remove the hose the pressure would smash your nuckles into your tail light and the hose would go whipping about until all the pressure was gone. And in this case upon disconnect if there was still press. in the tank the brakes don't come on right, would they if you dumped the air?

I wish I had a m105 to play touchy feely with to help figure this out.
 
Last edited:

SCSG-G4

PSVB 3003
Steel Soldiers Supporter
4,999
2,031
113
Location
Lexington, South Carolina
No check valve on the trailer side. On a regular 105 trailer all the air pressure escapes before you get the valve completely disengaged. Service side only has air available when braking, but it's best to switch both off before unhooking. The trailer also has hand brakes for each wheel to keep it from moving after the truck is gone. If you make a double axle only the front one would have a hand brake. Good wheel chocks should be standard equipment. Trailer master cylinders would be one per axle, not one per side. Please search the M109 camper threads by neilhendrix and mdmorgan for more/better information.
 

treeguy

New member
605
2
0
Location
Fort One Bay - Cape Cod, MA
I messaged Mdmorgan and he said that he hasn't crossed this bridge yet. I talked to a heavy truck mechanic today and came up with the following points and ideas.

- The way that MV trailers are set up does not allow for trailer self braking when lost on the road from its tow vehicle. Upon creating a home built trailer, I would imagine that the state inspectors would require this device. That is probably why trailers equipt with brakes have the safety brake actuator (wether it is cable or electric)

- Its like christmas lights - if one goes out, they all go out! Say you loose your trailer and the air lines snap off. Now you have a bleeding line from the trucks air tank - no brakes and you also have no brakes because everytime you press the peddle you are just pooping it out the service line. And it would require your STOPPING to get out and shut the manual valves at the rear end.

SO.... check out my diagram and lets see who is the first to tear it to shreds.

#1 The idea is to first off install the tractor trailer type pull/pop-push release valves at the dash. Two, one for the service air line and one for the emergency/trailer tank fill line. These would be to quickly stop ALL air from dumping out of the back of the truck during a disaster. The hand valves that I looked at today have a min. press. pop out safety. I think if you find the right ones you could still have enough air press. left in your truck to stop and change your underwear.

#2 Following along this hypo installation - install a big rig 24/24 or larger double diaphragm spring brake pack with its connecting rod pinned to the stock deuce master cylinder rod (take off the brake peddle and make it work)

#3 Mount an air activated relay between the big rig pack service connection and THE FIRST AIR TANK TO RECEIVE AIR FROM YOUR DEUCE. The relay is fed from the air tank and delievers to the service side of the big rig pack and is actuated by the service glad hand on the deuce. This is to give you NO delay in the trailer braking process. The spring side of the big rig pack is direct fed air from the SAME AIR TANK. Soooooo if the fit hits the shan and you loose air press between the truck and the trailer the spring in the big rig pack will activate the master cylinder and stop the trailer. How you ask, read on.

#4 The second air tank is fed from the above mentioned tank by a ONE WAY VALVE TO IT. Then this air tank is plumbed to the stock deuce set up air booster pack, LIKE NORMAL.

So as it goes, truck hooked to trailer, open manual valves in the back, get in, fire in the hole, push in BOTH hand valves on the dash, let all air tanks fill. When you press on the deuce brakes the big rig pack has no delay to actuate because it is direct fed from a pressurized tank and presses on the master cylinder like you would if you were there. The rest of the system, master cylinder/ booster behaves like it didn't know what happened to the rest of the truck. Now when your trailer decides to take the low road while you are on the high road you'll loose the air in the first tank. Which this will activate the big rig packs spring with 1300# of spring force like you jumping on the brakes. The trailers stock brake system will still function because of the ONE WAY AIR VALVE you installed between the two tanks (the one that your regularly check by dumping the air out of the first tank and checking for air in the other). This tank press. will supply the deuce air pack with the ONE CONSTANT SHOT that it will get from the big rig pack on the master cylinder. AND you in the deuce can keep on truckin' because either you pull the push/pull valves installed on the dash and let the compressor catch up or the valves pop themselves up becaus they got down to 30 psi. Either way you'll still be awake for the event when the low air buzzer starts.

Anyway, check out the diagram and lets see what you think. The other reason I came up with this is that I don't have a stock pile of MV parts in my back yard to pick appart. I have to design it and pay full price where ever. So if I can use modern brake parts than maybe I can have more to chose from.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

powerhouseduece

Active member
1,440
3
38
Location
Pasadena, Md
A m1061 has 2 master cylinders, one per axle. If you air the system up and then disconnect the emergency line, the brakes will lock up due to the safety valve. A m105a2 will do the same thing. The only way to release the brakes is to drain the air tank completely. That's why I sad you can just take the systems off 2 m105's instead of reinventing the wheel.
 

powerhouseduece

Active member
1,440
3
38
Location
Pasadena, Md
There is always some one cutting up a m105 for the bed to build a bobbed truck. Just keep your eyes peeled in the classifieds.

The only reason this makes me think of this, I had to weld one of the master cylinder/booster on Carnac's m1061. It look like the same brake parts on a m105.
 

jaxsof

New member
586
15
0
Location
Dundalk, MD
"- The way that MV trailers are set up does not allow for trailer self braking when lost on the road from its tow vehicle. Upon creating a home built trailer, I would imagine that the state inspectors would require this device. That is probably why trailers equipt with brakes have the safety brake actuator (wether it is cable or electric)"

A 105a3 (only 105 manual I have) has a breakaway application leaver which is tethered to the towing vehicle. The rest have a realy valve, which uses trailer reservoir air to apply the breaks in the event of a lost towing vehicle.

Also, you may wanna check the Fed Regs:
393.43 Breakaway and emergency braking.
(d) Breakaway braking requirements for trailers. Every trailer required to be equipped with brakes shall have brakes which apply automatically and immediately upon breakaway from the towing vehicle. With the exception of trailers having three or more axles, all brakes with which the trailer is required to be equipped must be applied upon breakaway from the towing vehicle. The brakes must remain in the applied position for at least 15 minutes.

In MD, any trailer over 3000 lbs is required to have brakes

You might want to considder using 2 (1 per axle) systems from an M200, or maybe 1 from an M796 I think I would prefer the 796 route, They seem like heavier trailers and already set-up for 2 axles
 

treeguy

New member
605
2
0
Location
Fort One Bay - Cape Cod, MA
Your point about heavy trailers requiring break away brakes is exactly my point. Everyones suggestions about using 105 or M200 or m796 sound good but I haven't seen anyone exactly giving these parts away. Does anyone know of sources for these parts?
 
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website like our supporting vendors. Their ads help keep Steel Soldiers going. Please consider disabling your ad blockers for the site. Thanks!

I've Disabled AdBlock
No Thanks