- 1,111
- 1,645
- 113
- Location
- Wilson County, Texas
I will PM you.
-
Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!
ECO Hubs Who needs 3:07 gears?
- Thread starter Xengineguy
- Start date
Ronmar
Well-known member
- 4,167
- 7,991
- 113
- Location
- Port angeles wa
It is probably not the transmission. Spinning it at lower RPM would probably cause a little less gear friction heat, but the heat generated is more a factor of the load placed upon the gears, and that is really a factor of the work they are being asked to perform. If the truck is the same weight, transmission load has not really changed.
I think your lack of heat is because you are now burning less fuel. Running an engine down the highway above peak torque is like driving with an exhaust brake engaged. You are pumping/compressing a lot of air, the volume of which, as well as the resistance to pumping, increases with RPM. That is one reason torque falls off rapidly above peak torque rpm(~peak volumetric efficiency).
In order to get enough torque out of the engine to perform the work required, you must burn enough fuel to make that torque and overcome the high RPM pumping losses. That extra fuel makes heat. Changing the final gearing and lowering the engine RPM removes the up to 10% efficiency loss the hub gears incur(they get warm, heat = loss), and all the above-peak torque pumping losses incurred by the screaming kittie. Lower load = less fuel = less heat…
in answer to your question the trans probably runs about the same temp as the engine does. You probably have 15-20F of temp drop across the radiator, so if that 200F temp is accurate at the thermostat housing, it is probably ~180F-185F at the bottom of the radiator/trans cooler. In order to transfer heat you need temp difference, so the trans is probably operating ~185-195F.
As mentioned, on the A0 they sent all the bypass coolant to the trans cooler, so until the trans warms up and starts making heat, it will absorb all the heat the engine produces. They didn’t do this on the A1, probably because the EFI system those engines employ really want stable warm temps to perform cleanly…
- 2,355
- 5,822
- 113
- Location
- Portland, OR
Can confirm the EFI engines will roll coal till they get some heat in them. Not much, but it's there. And the C7's have HUGE catalytic converters inside the muffler assembly. They definitely want to get the engine up to temp as quick as they can (excess fuel can damage the converter) and actually I wouldn't be surprised if the ECM complained if the engine didn't get up to operating temp withing a specified timeframe. Not unusual to see that behavior on modern computer controlled engines.
- 1,111
- 1,645
- 113
- Location
- Wilson County, Texas
I already knew I'd like them, but driving the truck above at over 70mph down Highway 90 in south Texas & is being easier to talk than 58mph in my truck... wow! I have a basic model vs an A1, but no doubt, the fact you can roll at basically idle is so nice. Great to meet another owner that's not far away too.
Told myself, & I gotta stick to it, the OEM A/C kit has to be installed before I even order these hubs because I am behind on projects. I need to hurry up!
Ronmar
Well-known member
- 4,167
- 7,991
- 113
- Location
- Port angeles wa
Welcome to the dark side
- 2,355
- 5,822
- 113
- Location
- Portland, OR
OEM AC is a job. Took me a year in total before I charged it and had it operational.
I would order the hubs - never know when the demand will fall off and time between production runs will increase. We have seen it with other stuff like aftermarket shocks, etc. The people that want them snap them up and then it's just a few that get ordered here and there and often not enough to justify production runs without a list of waiting buyers.
- 551
- 874
- 93
- Location
- Texas Hill Country
I enjoyed meeting Colt this weekend, and picked up some of his CTIS hub rebuild kits, too.
The drive down and back was a breeze. With the ECO HUBS she cruises at 60, still looking for a plug and play tachometer, though i'd guess right about 1,600 rpm in 6th gear—
Last edited:
Third From Texas
Well-known member
- 2,821
- 6,643
- 113
- Location
- Corpus Christi Texas
Third From Texas
Well-known member
- 2,821
- 6,643
- 113
- Location
- Corpus Christi Texas
Yeah, because potential order requests in his thread are easily lost in the various discussions there. He will get an email notification if you PM him. As popular as this thread is, he may not have all the spam notifications for each and every post. PMs are a good point of contact. And as much discussing goes on here, as I said it's easy to miss a post or long reply that contains a request to purchase.
That said, he advertises on other social media. He added the number to the hubs themselves in these adds so people could call and reach him directly to order. Every picture of a hub is an ad with his contact number.
That said, he advertises on other social media. He added the number to the hubs themselves in these adds so people could call and reach him directly to order. Every picture of a hub is an ad with his contact number.
Last edited:
- 223
- 235
- 43
- Location
- Woodside CA
Since I now have about 3200 miles behind the wheel in an ECO Hub equipped truck, and drove in all kinds of conditions on my journey from Maryland to California, I thought I would post my thoughts. Keep in mind that these thoughts are coming from someone who only had about 4 miles behind the wheel with the stock hubs, so I essentially have zero point of reference in that respect.
The journey was uneventful, mostly, from a truck standpoint. Truck literally ran like a Swiss watch mechanically. I have some electrical niggles to sort out relative to the charging system, did the drive with the battery protection box disconnected because it kept disconnecting the batteries for no reason. I also have an oil leak at the front of the motor after the install of the AC compressor bracket, and I need to redo the install of the ECO Hubs because they are leaking. The seller of the truck installed the hubs for me, along with the AC and cruise control before I arrived, he has several businesses related to these trucks and habitats for them. He actually makes the AC brackets Acela uses . Anyway, he said he followed the instructions to a T and watched Mike's video, but something obviously happened because three out of four hubs are leaking, one front hub quite badly. Anyway, the seller is a super nice guy, I spent two and a half days working on the truck side by side with him and now consider him a friend,
On to the hubs. My truck is a 2008 M1078 A1R with a C7 running the 370HP tune with an Alison 3700S behind it. With the eco hubs, the truck goes like stink for a truck with something like an 18,000 curb weight. The new aluminum wheels/tires I had delivered to Maryland unfortunately seem to have some out of round issues so the vast majority of the trip was at 58 - 60 MPH. If the road was really smooth, I could drive 65 - 75 MPH comfortably. When I have the leaks sorted I'll spend some time with a go pro under the truck to see which tire/tires are the issues. This was the first vehicle the seller had installed Eco Hubs on and when he went into Baltimore to pick up my aluminum wheels he said he had the truck up to 80mph and it was the smoothest riding LMTV he had ever driven. Go figure, the steel wheels with zero balancing and crappy old 2008 tires had zero vibration issues and my new $5000 aluminum wheels/tires bounce like a poggo stick. Eco Hubs allow you to so easily travel at normal freeway speeds that the tires/wheels become the limiting factor. My truck is dead smooth up to 56 - 58 mph. Once you hit 60, it's a mess. With stock gearing, this would never be a factor.
Okay, back to the hubs. To me, the ideal scenario would be if the stock ring and pinion gearing was lower than 307. I don't need my LMTV to go 116 mph, and would prefer the lower gears off road. I haven't done any real off roading yet, but did put it in Mode for some short dirt excursions and would prefer lower gearing. It's likely fine for how I will use the truck, but I would prefer lower gearing off road. With the Eco hubs, 7th gear is basically an overdrive, my truck wouldn't shift into 7th until 67 mph, and to me, 65mph is the ideal cruising speed for the truck, so you basically end up with a 6 speed unless you plan to drive faster than 65 a lot. It just feels right at 65, but that's just my opinion. In the mountains in Colorado, the trans hunted back and forth between 5th and 6th a lot. I have the Alison software but haven't played with it at all. I hear it's quite powerful software, but tuff to get working when you aren't an Alison certified shop. Too risky for me anyway, so I plan to search out a good heavy duty Alison tech and see what can be done relative to tailoring the trans to the gearing. The truck will pull 6th for ever, lugging itself down and won't downshift unless you bury your foot in the pedal. I think tuning the trans to the gearing would make a huge improvement. Amazingly, I consistently averaged 9 - 10 MPG, hand calculated of course. That's pretty amazing for a truck of this size and weight, that is like pushing a hotel through the wind. My Ram AEV Prospector XL has 335/80 R20 Continental MPT 81's on it, is Cummins powered, and I get 12 - 13 mpg. It's less than half the weight of my S&S and waaaay more aerodynamic. 9 -10 in an S&S is impressive.
Now, one thing that is an absolute must in my opinion if you are going to travel in the mountains with an Eco Hub equipped truck is an exhaust brake. The switch in my truck is missing, the seller is sending me one along with some other stuff, and given the rust on the linkage of my pacbrake, I'm guessing it would stick closed if I used it right now. It will be on my shortlist of things to get working though as it is a must in the mountains with Eco Hubs. The gearing is so tall, when the road turns down hill, the truck just takes off. It's amazing how quickly it picks up speed. You're left with nothing but your service brakes without an exhaust brake and that isn't fun on long steep mountain grades. I guess I'm spoiled by the automatic setting on the exhaust brake in my Ram that just automatically modulates the exhaust brake to keep you at the speed you are going when you take your foot off the pedal. I know the application of the Pac brake on the S&S isn't great. I hear it way too aggressively downshifts the trans to 3rd gear when the Pac brake is engaged. Again, hoping either in the TCM or ECM this can be programmed out. If not, I'll wire around the truck electronics and just make the pac brake manual. The trans also isn't very aggressive about down shifting, yes you can manually down shift, but it's of limited help unless you downshift to the point you are piss winding the motor. On freeway off ramps, the trans doesn't downshift until you are almost at a stop.
So, I probably have said some things that would make one think I'm not totally stoked on the Eco Hubs, but that isn't the case. I would absolutely buy them again. Is it the perfect setup, no, but definitely better than 307 gears in my opinion for the simplicity and efficiency you gain by deleting the planetary gears, not to mention the cost savings. And, they would be the perfect setup if you installed lower ring and pinion gears. Drivability on road is really good and will only get better with some trans tuning. I'm guessing, either in the TCM or ECM, there is somewhere where the gearing is set. So now, the trans thinks the truck has stock gearing, but in fact the gearing literally twice as high. That has to affect how the trans shifts. I know it makes a huge difference in my Ram.
Sorry for the long ramble and rabbit holes into things not directly related to Eco Hubs
The journey was uneventful, mostly, from a truck standpoint. Truck literally ran like a Swiss watch mechanically. I have some electrical niggles to sort out relative to the charging system, did the drive with the battery protection box disconnected because it kept disconnecting the batteries for no reason. I also have an oil leak at the front of the motor after the install of the AC compressor bracket, and I need to redo the install of the ECO Hubs because they are leaking. The seller of the truck installed the hubs for me, along with the AC and cruise control before I arrived, he has several businesses related to these trucks and habitats for them. He actually makes the AC brackets Acela uses . Anyway, he said he followed the instructions to a T and watched Mike's video, but something obviously happened because three out of four hubs are leaking, one front hub quite badly. Anyway, the seller is a super nice guy, I spent two and a half days working on the truck side by side with him and now consider him a friend,
On to the hubs. My truck is a 2008 M1078 A1R with a C7 running the 370HP tune with an Alison 3700S behind it. With the eco hubs, the truck goes like stink for a truck with something like an 18,000 curb weight. The new aluminum wheels/tires I had delivered to Maryland unfortunately seem to have some out of round issues so the vast majority of the trip was at 58 - 60 MPH. If the road was really smooth, I could drive 65 - 75 MPH comfortably. When I have the leaks sorted I'll spend some time with a go pro under the truck to see which tire/tires are the issues. This was the first vehicle the seller had installed Eco Hubs on and when he went into Baltimore to pick up my aluminum wheels he said he had the truck up to 80mph and it was the smoothest riding LMTV he had ever driven. Go figure, the steel wheels with zero balancing and crappy old 2008 tires had zero vibration issues and my new $5000 aluminum wheels/tires bounce like a poggo stick. Eco Hubs allow you to so easily travel at normal freeway speeds that the tires/wheels become the limiting factor. My truck is dead smooth up to 56 - 58 mph. Once you hit 60, it's a mess. With stock gearing, this would never be a factor.
Okay, back to the hubs. To me, the ideal scenario would be if the stock ring and pinion gearing was lower than 307. I don't need my LMTV to go 116 mph, and would prefer the lower gears off road. I haven't done any real off roading yet, but did put it in Mode for some short dirt excursions and would prefer lower gearing. It's likely fine for how I will use the truck, but I would prefer lower gearing off road. With the Eco hubs, 7th gear is basically an overdrive, my truck wouldn't shift into 7th until 67 mph, and to me, 65mph is the ideal cruising speed for the truck, so you basically end up with a 6 speed unless you plan to drive faster than 65 a lot. It just feels right at 65, but that's just my opinion. In the mountains in Colorado, the trans hunted back and forth between 5th and 6th a lot. I have the Alison software but haven't played with it at all. I hear it's quite powerful software, but tuff to get working when you aren't an Alison certified shop. Too risky for me anyway, so I plan to search out a good heavy duty Alison tech and see what can be done relative to tailoring the trans to the gearing. The truck will pull 6th for ever, lugging itself down and won't downshift unless you bury your foot in the pedal. I think tuning the trans to the gearing would make a huge improvement. Amazingly, I consistently averaged 9 - 10 MPG, hand calculated of course. That's pretty amazing for a truck of this size and weight, that is like pushing a hotel through the wind. My Ram AEV Prospector XL has 335/80 R20 Continental MPT 81's on it, is Cummins powered, and I get 12 - 13 mpg. It's less than half the weight of my S&S and waaaay more aerodynamic. 9 -10 in an S&S is impressive.
Now, one thing that is an absolute must in my opinion if you are going to travel in the mountains with an Eco Hub equipped truck is an exhaust brake. The switch in my truck is missing, the seller is sending me one along with some other stuff, and given the rust on the linkage of my pacbrake, I'm guessing it would stick closed if I used it right now. It will be on my shortlist of things to get working though as it is a must in the mountains with Eco Hubs. The gearing is so tall, when the road turns down hill, the truck just takes off. It's amazing how quickly it picks up speed. You're left with nothing but your service brakes without an exhaust brake and that isn't fun on long steep mountain grades. I guess I'm spoiled by the automatic setting on the exhaust brake in my Ram that just automatically modulates the exhaust brake to keep you at the speed you are going when you take your foot off the pedal. I know the application of the Pac brake on the S&S isn't great. I hear it way too aggressively downshifts the trans to 3rd gear when the Pac brake is engaged. Again, hoping either in the TCM or ECM this can be programmed out. If not, I'll wire around the truck electronics and just make the pac brake manual. The trans also isn't very aggressive about down shifting, yes you can manually down shift, but it's of limited help unless you downshift to the point you are piss winding the motor. On freeway off ramps, the trans doesn't downshift until you are almost at a stop.
So, I probably have said some things that would make one think I'm not totally stoked on the Eco Hubs, but that isn't the case. I would absolutely buy them again. Is it the perfect setup, no, but definitely better than 307 gears in my opinion for the simplicity and efficiency you gain by deleting the planetary gears, not to mention the cost savings. And, they would be the perfect setup if you installed lower ring and pinion gears. Drivability on road is really good and will only get better with some trans tuning. I'm guessing, either in the TCM or ECM, there is somewhere where the gearing is set. So now, the trans thinks the truck has stock gearing, but in fact the gearing literally twice as high. That has to affect how the trans shifts. I know it makes a huge difference in my Ram.
Sorry for the long ramble and rabbit holes into things not directly related to Eco Hubs
Last edited:
Skyhawk13205
Well-known member
- 177
- 289
- 63
- Location
- Alaska
My hubs leak as-well, mostly from the caps, I parked on a side hill then took off the caps and put RTV to seal them better.
It would be nice to know what the WTEC III CIN default shifts are set to and what limits are the adaption are.
I Just fixed my PAC brake, it was not to hard, I had to heat it up then use a freeze spray to loosen the flange to separate from the turbocharger. I used penetrant oil to loosen the valve with a 1.5 foot long Pipe wrench. Once the valve is loose I used PTFE synthetic lube to lubercate the valve and actuator. It works great now.
- 2,355
- 5,822
- 113
- Location
- Portland, OR
The PAC brake isn't nearly as effective with the ECO hubs as it was before. It helps but not nearly as much as the transmission downshifting. The FMTV PAC Brake does have a tendency to seize up - mine did at one point and I had to remove it and "service" it aggressively in my bench vise quite a bit. Hasn't had an issue since but other guys have not had my luck it seems.:
I put about 8,000 miles on my truck before the hubs, and have about 3,000 on it with the hubs and I don't find that the transmission shift behavior needs any adjustment - other than being smoother because it better loads the converter, it's not significantly different other than which gear you are in for a given ground speed. If it shifted sooner it would put you below peak torque in the next gear and that would not be efficient. The transmission doesn't know or care what your ground speed (IE: gearing) is - it's shift behavior is governed by throttle input and input/output speed and it's programming is based on engine specs - peak torque, governed redline, etc. In the Allison software it doesn't even show ground speed that I have found. I have poked around in the software quite a bit and not found anything that I thought would be useful to change....... have contemplated seeing if I could set the PAC brake to stay engaged down into 2nd gear but as I noted the PAC brake is much less effective with the ECO hubs so I haven't bothered. You almost didn't even need the service brakes with the reduction hubs and the exhaust brake but now it just gives you a gentle drag when it engages.
I've done four complete ECO hub installs - two 4x4 and two 6x6 and none of them leak from anywhere using my sealant of choice:
I put about 8,000 miles on my truck before the hubs, and have about 3,000 on it with the hubs and I don't find that the transmission shift behavior needs any adjustment - other than being smoother because it better loads the converter, it's not significantly different other than which gear you are in for a given ground speed. If it shifted sooner it would put you below peak torque in the next gear and that would not be efficient. The transmission doesn't know or care what your ground speed (IE: gearing) is - it's shift behavior is governed by throttle input and input/output speed and it's programming is based on engine specs - peak torque, governed redline, etc. In the Allison software it doesn't even show ground speed that I have found. I have poked around in the software quite a bit and not found anything that I thought would be useful to change....... have contemplated seeing if I could set the PAC brake to stay engaged down into 2nd gear but as I noted the PAC brake is much less effective with the ECO hubs so I haven't bothered. You almost didn't even need the service brakes with the reduction hubs and the exhaust brake but now it just gives you a gentle drag when it engages.
I've done four complete ECO hub installs - two 4x4 and two 6x6 and none of them leak from anywhere using my sealant of choice:
Third From Texas
Well-known member
- 2,821
- 6,643
- 113
- Location
- Corpus Christi Texas
I'm not surprised in the least.
My 2008 A1R with OEM rims and 2008 Goodyears is smooth as silk on the highway. No balancing of the tires or even the driveshaft.
I don't think it has to do with the gearing or the hubs. The vibration issues from the tires would still present themselves, just at different speeds.
At the end f the day, this is why I want the ECO hubs. I can't imagine the truck ever lacking to power. My current 4mpg sucks...
Great writeup, though. Thanks for sharing !
Last edited:
- 2,355
- 5,822
- 113
- Location
- Portland, OR
My original 2008 tires were perfectly smooth after 6 months of driving on them (including the 2800 miles home - it still took 6 months for them to "round out" and be really smooth). Then had a blow out on the front. My 2021 tires are getting better the more I drive them. Sitting doesn't help the tires - new or old. They seem to respond well to daily driving.
Even the A1P2's down at the base gallop pretty good around their top speed (62). Worse than my truck. The guys don't even notice it - they're just used to them.
Third From Texas
Well-known member
- 2,821
- 6,643
- 113
- Location
- Corpus Christi Texas
The PAC brake isn't nearly as effective with the ECO hubs as it was before. It helps but not nearly as much as the transmission downshifting. The FMTV PAC Brake does have a tendency to seize up - mine did at one point and I had to remove it and "service" it aggressively in my bench vise quite a bit. Hasn't had an issue since but other guys have not had my luck it seems.:
I put about 8,000 miles on my truck before the hubs, and have about 3,000 on it with the hubs and I don't find that the transmission shift behavior needs any adjustment - other than being smoother because it better loads the converter, it's not significantly different other than which gear you are in for a given ground speed. If it shifted sooner it would put you below peak torque in the next gear and that would not be efficient. The transmission doesn't know or care what your ground speed (IE: gearing) is - it's shift behavior is governed by throttle input and input/output speed and it's programming is based on engine specs - peak torque, governed redline, etc. In the Allison software it doesn't even show ground speed that I have found. I have poked around in the software quite a bit and not found anything that I thought would be useful to change....... have contemplated seeing if I could set the PAC brake to stay engaged down into 2nd gear but as I noted the PAC brake is much less effective with the ECO hubs so I haven't bothered. You almost didn't even need the service brakes with the reduction hubs and the exhaust brake but now it just gives you a gentle drag when it engages.
I've done four complete ECO hub installs - two 4x4 and two 6x6 and none of them leak from anywhere using my sealant of choice:
Disappointed to hear about the PAC brake losing effectiveness.
I kinda figured that the trans would need a re-tune after the ECO hubs were added too the equation. Going to have to see what people are doing with regards to this.
But damn, the loose off the effective PAC brake may be a deal breaker for me. I use mine ALL the time when the trailer is attached (or it's raining badly). It came in real handy in the Texas Hill Country, too. I figure it will be needed to get around the Rockies.
I'll have to watch what you guys come up with.
Last edited:
- 2,355
- 5,822
- 113
- Location
- Portland, OR
It's not really a big deal - @Lostchain pulls his M1082 with ECO hubs and has no issues. It makes sense when you think about it - for a given road speed the engine RPM's are half what they used to be with the reduction hubs so slowing down airflow through the engine with a cork in the exhaust is half as effective. Remember though that A0 trucks didn't even have one. It still helps - just only half as much and you do still have the warmup capability also. Gaining +3 mpg and engine/transmission longevity is more than worth the loss of half the PAC brake effectiveness in my opinion.
- 223
- 235
- 43
- Location
- Woodside CA
I wasn't implying it had anything to do with the gearing or hubs, just that with stock gearing you aren't able to drive fast enough for it to become an issue.
- 752
- 1,894
- 93
- Location
- San Diego, CA
Yeah I can see an issue with it having highway gears and Eco hubs. I don't think it's ideal that the two be combined.