Epic 27MT Rebuild quest.

Hasdrubal

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6 years ago my starter failed, started grinding the flexplate. It had been cranking slow since I got it 2 1/2 years earlier, the guy who sold it to me said they were all like that. Went to a friends shop, where there were plenty of CUCV parts kicking about in case I needed something.

He recommended shimming it, bought some shims, tried different combos, all to no avail. Pulled it apart to find that the shaft had worn clear through the endplate bearing and substantially into the end cap, it was shot. Scrounged around, found another end cap. Went to the local parts store, they had a 27MT rebuild kit in stock for $60, my cost $40. Fairly straightforward to rebuild, until I came to the end cap bushing. It fit the end cap but the inside diameter was too small for the shaft. I'm guessing that the person who placed all the parts in the box got this one wrong.

Being away from home with an inoperable M1009, I had to get it going that day. didn't have access to a lathe, all I could think of was to carefully take a die-grinder from both ends and slowly enlarge the I.D. until it would fit the shaft. I know..this is far from being even remotely acceptable from an engineering standpoint, but was simply a field expedient modification. Did I mention that it was - 6, snowing, into my second day there as I also went to replace a failed thermostat, no heat is really noticeable when its that cold. The bolt broke for the thermostat housing, so I had to swap in another water crossover pipe.

Got the ID of the bushing to fit reasonably well given the extremely primitive method of material removal. Put starter in using the same bolts torqued by hand feel ( I didn't know the bolts required replacing). It spun the engine so fast it startled me. So, this is what its supposed to start like. Later on I replaced the flex plate when I had the transmission rebuilt. Its been spinning fast, trouble free, engine firing within a second, all these years. Lately it seems to have slowed a little in cranking rpm's, requiring another second to fire.

That bushing mod I did had always been nagging me. So, I've decided to rebuild it again, pre-emptively, before it gets hard to start. First I went to the local store and asked for the kit by part number, its now $75. Looking around the net I've seen kits that had a lot more parts than mine came with for only $26. So I sent an e-mail to a firm ( www.aspwholesale.com ) that offered a extensive repair kit and a huge selection of individual components listed. My first question was about kit DR-79-1100 for the 27MT listed as 12V. They confirmed that there are different brushes for the 24V version. Learned something new, reading all the threads here I understood only the solenoid and armature were different. They have since updated their website to show the 24V option.

Heres where it gets weird, I'm e-mailing their tech-service, tell them that I'd like to order an extra set of brushes and bushings as well as the repair kit. I ask for part numbers, they give me a wrong number for the brushes, 68-124, I look at all the specs and see that 68-126 cross references to 1852890 which is correct per the TM.

The part numbers for the bushings are totally confusing me. As well, they send me numbers for 4 bushings. I seem to only recall 3, where would the 4th go? Keeping with the mantra that if something is incorrect "its all suspect", I start cross referencing the bushing numbers. None of the 4 numbers match those in the TM's.

Loking at section 40 of TM 289-34P, it only shows the starter flange bushing -8 1894023. I can't seem to find a number for the end cap or drive end bushing, its not even pictured. So far I've only managed to cross reference the starter flange bushing to 62-1703.

So here's my question to you guys. Does anyone know a number for the end cap bushing or a different source of information to reference? Or any other pertinent data re these bushings. Obviously they're closed until Tuesday and I'd like to get the numbers sorted and the correct parts delivered. I would hate to receive the kit and have an incorrect bearing issue again.
 
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Hasdrubal

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Seems the TM 34P doesn't show the Drive end bushing either. Part 16 1928021 BEARING,SLEEVE is a stop collar. The kit for 27MT is DR-79-1100 / tell them its 24V. The correct brushes are #68-126. Here's a rundown on the rest of the part numbers with hopefully, now, the correct bushing numbers.

55-105 Shift Lever
62-1406 Bushing
62-1505 Bushing
62-1703 Bushing
69-1202 Brush Holder
69-1204 Brush Holder
69-1701 Brush Spring
71-1304-1 Grommet
72-1101 Insulator
76-1251 Connector
76-1602 Ground Lead
76-1609 Field Coil Lead
76-1804 Retaining Ring
76-1805 Stop Collar
76-1848 Thrust Collar
84-1217 Screw
84-1222 Screw
84-1317 Screw
84-1338 Screw
84-1410 Screw
84-2308 Nut
84-4305 Lock Washer
84-4309 Lock Washer
84-4401 Lock Washer
84-4610 Thrust Washer
84-5901 Pin
84-7706 Brake Washer

I've also found the AC-Delco starter bolts on amazon for $1.24 ea. Ordered a new Starter drive, new Commutater end housing and a new #7-920 24V solenoid. Even though everything works fine I've decided to replace these items so I dont have to pull the starter again in the near future.
 

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Warthog

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I have ordered many parts from ASPWholesale. Most of them have been alternator parts.

Thanks for posting this info.
 
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Hasdrubal

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Have most of the parts in. New solenoid doesn't have spring or plunger. I also dont have a new dust boot, seem to remember mine was a little worse for wear. Since I am replacing most of the starter internals for good measure. Should I replace these items, are they a wear item?
 

Hasdrubal

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Finally got around to doing the rebuild. Even though I communicated with the tech at ASP several times regarding the correct numbers for the bushings, they sent me the wrong DE bushing. #62-1406 is incorrect (.6260 in. OD), it should be #62-1500 (.5638 in. OD). Luckily, I did the work at a friends shop that had a lathe, so we fabricated a mandrel to mount the bushing and turned the OD down to fit. The 24V brushes are similiar dimensions to the 12V ones I had in there from last rebuild except they are 9.5mm thick vs 8mm, thats 18.75% more surface area. It cranks over seriously fast now!

Getting the two blind end bushings out can be a little tricky, you need the correct size tap to thread in a few turns then carefully coerce apart with a rubber mallet. This time my Commutater end bushing showed surprisingly no wear. It had the same amount of play as the new CE bushing exhibited. The Drive end bushing was a different story, a 60 degree area was worn right away, you could see the aluminum housing. This tapered down almost halfway the length of the bushing. Fortunately, the shaft was still supported enough that there was no wear marks on the drive housing hole. So, that was 7 years and 80,000 miles with at least 2 starts a day.

New Bendix(starter drive installed) old one had the two halves of clutch housing come loose, they could now be rotated independently. Inconsequential wear or close to some kind of failure? Installed a new 24V Solenoid # 7-920 from Texas Industrial Electric for good measure, found a new plunger and dust boot on e-bay. Also found a new solenoid return spring, correct number, but it felt noticeably weaker than the existing spring so I put the old one back in..go figure. Installed with new AC Delco starter bolts (Amazon $1.24 ea) with blue locktite, torqued to 33 Ft/lbs.

Noticed the nut that attaches the starter support bracket to starter stud showed that that it had been moving around a little, slightly enlarging the lower slotted hole on the bracket. So I used a couple of washers with a lock washer and a new nut, instead of just the locking nut it had before. This locking nut was very hard to remove, used penetrating fluid and carefully worked it back and forth many times. It felt like it was going to shear off the threaded end of the starter stud. Might consider getting a new stud if your threads look badly rusted.
 
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Hasdrubal

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Have a request for anyone that will be disassembling their direct drive 27MT starter, or has one kicking about their shop. Could you measure the diameter of the armature shaft on the Commutater end. Reason I ask is that the new commutater end plate I installed that had a new bushing which seemed to have some play. This has been naggin me for a while. I forgot to take this measurement and would like to see if there is an undersize ID bushing available, for next time. Thanks.

If any one needs a source for a new commutater end plate with bushing or drive end housing with bushing, PM me.
 

Hasdrubal

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First let me say I'm puzzled by the lack of response to the 27MT starter bushing issues. How is it, that with so many CUCV guys here, no one has gone through this experience with bushing sizes. The TM's don't list numbers. Does no one do their own rebuilding? With all the guys here having hundreds if not thousands of posts..is there a baking or sewing thread I'm missing.

I noticed Warthog referenced ASP for starter rebuild kits in other threads. * Be forewarned *; If you're ordering a rebuild kit from ASP, not just the DE bushing was incorrect but also the CE bushing they sent me was wrong. When I installed a new CE plate w/bushing I unfortunately neglected to measure either the bushing ID or the armature shaft OD.

The CE bushing ASP sent was # 62-1505 / .5642 in. ID x .6895 in. OD x .750 in. L. The OD is too large, can be turned on a lathe with a mandrel...but I'm unsure of the ID.

The old CE plate hole diameter is .624 OD.

Here's possible candidates ;
62-1501 .5642 (14.33mm) ID x .6280 in. OD x .650 in. L
62-1501-1 .5617 (14.26mm) ID x .6280 OD x .650 in. L .0025 in. (1X) Undersize
62-1501-2 .5592 (14.22mm) ID x .6280 OD x .650 in. L .0050 in. (2X) Undersize
62-1501-3 .5567 (14.16mm) ID x .6280 OD x .650 in. L .0075 in. (3X) Undersize
62-1501-4 .554 (14.08mm) ID x .6280 OD x .676 in. L .0100 in. (4X) Undersize

There may be others I'm unaware of at this moment. By the way, the extra bushings I ordered are for the next rebuild 4-5 years down the road. The DE bushing is very thin and will easily wear through over time given the weight and load factors. Attached is a starter diagram listing different numbers for the bushings. If any one can shed some light on this issue, that would be great. It will save any other members from the same grief.
 

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carter262

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New Bendix(starter drive installed) old one had the two halves of clutch housing come loose, they could now be rotated independently. Inconsequential wear or close to some kind of failure? Installed a new 24V Solenoid # 7-920 from Texas Industrial Electric for good measure, found a new plunger and dust boot on e-bay..
Here did you get the bendix? Do you have the part number?
 

edpdx

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I as many here will remember, struggled with starter issues for the first two or so years of ownership with my M1009. I replaced the one I found which was a Direct Drive- stamped 12volt. After it tested ok, I was told it was a shim/flexplate issue. I eyeballed clearance and didn't shim. I bought a Chinese 28mt version on the Bay. Seemed ok, but a few days into the install I was getting clicks and no starts. I noticed that when I removed the starter that there was a loud snap as I loosened the two bolts.

Ah, ha moment: My 73 C20 did this once or twice, but I pursueded it with a rubber mallet.

By this time I bought an expensive WILSON starter. I put it in and didn't shim as the housing said not to. It was after this that I read that re-builders mill the mounting surfaces, and shims are needed- even when the housing still says NOT TO SHIM. It took a pretty thick shim. Now I almost never have that sticktion problem. "Sticktion" is an Apple computer term coined in the early 80's for Hard Drives that would gum up and not allow the swing arm of IDE drives to make full passes over the media stacks. I thought it would be ok here.
 

Hasdrubal

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Well, final chapter on the 27MT rebuild. Starters been cranking slower, harder to start, 5 years and 4 months since rebuild. This time I ordered a selection of undersize I.D. bushings. The whole pack was $10, which is their minimum order amount. Last time I had a new CE end plate that came with the same size bushing installed as ASP sends, it wobbles on the shaft, there is so much play. Also. a new DE nose cone housing I picked up for $25 just in case, also has the same size loose fitting bushing they sent.

ASP 27MT starter kit DR-79-1100 Components
62-1406 DE Bushing # WRONG .5010 in. ID x .6260 in. OD x .775 in. L
62-1505 CE Bushing # WRONG .5642 in. ID x .6895 in. OD x .750 in. L
62-1703 CS Bushing

Had some difficulty getting the blind end bushings out, didn't have a tap big enough. So fashioned a tool from a long stainless rod and slowly chiseled out one end of the bushing to get them to collapse and remove. In case you're ever doing your own rebuild. Best fitting bushing sizes ;

CE bushing 62-1501-1 .5617 in. ID x .6280 in. OD x .650 in. L
DE bushing 62-1500-2 .4983 in. ID x .5638 in. OD x .780 in. L

The new brushes I installed last time had negligible wear, about 1 mm, so left them in. The difference in cranking speed after a rebuild is always a startling contrast. Now fires right up.
 

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Jake59

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Have a request for anyone that will be disassembling their direct drive 27MT starter, or has one kicking about their shop. Could you measure the diameter of the armature shaft on the Commutater end. Reason I ask is that the new commutater end plate I installed that had a new bushing which seemed to have some play. This has been naggin me for a while. I forgot to take this measurement and would like to see if there is an undersize ID bushing available, for next time. Thanks.

If any one needs a source for a new commutater end plate with bushing or drive end housing with bushing, PM me.
Hi,

Been a while since you posted this, I realize very well.
Just been working on my starter as well.
It was dead when I bought my M1009.
The windings attached to the body had overheated and shorted out.
So replaced that with new coils.

But the starter still runs much too slow!!
So I replaced the bushings... that is to say, the front and middle bushing. Went quite easy and was necessary it seems, considering how much less play there is now on the starter shaft.
Also pulled the bushing at the rear side, the one near the brushes I think that is what you call the CE bushing, right?
But the new bushing I ordered (9/16" x 15/8") does not fit, it is too small for the rear end housing.
I measured: rear shaft O.D. 9/16" x rear housing I.D. 11/16" x length of old bushing 3/4", but could be up to 1" long and will still fit in the rear end housing.

Problem is now to get this bushing. Where can I find it and what is the correct part number to order?
Any help welcome!!

I tried the site you recommended: ASP Wholesale, but can only get onto their main page and impossible to search for anything or even search a part number. Is it because I am not located in USA perhaps?

All and any help therefore very welcome!

Thanks,
Jake
 
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