High Volume Power Steering Pump

[Sharecropper]

I plan to purchase and install a new HMMWV MileMarker hydraulic winch between the frame rails behind the front bumper of my M1028. These units obtain their hydraulic fluid (and power) from the engine's power steering pump. Because my pump is original and 30 years old, I had planned on installing a new pump to lessen the chance of failure when the day comes and I need the winch to get back to civilization. Question - does anybody know of a direct bolt-in replacement pump which would provide a higher volume than the stock 6.2 pump?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

 

[Drock]

Not sure the flow rate of our pumps but I found this one....http://www.mkmcustoms.com/borgesonh...cummins.aspx?gclid=CJ6Rq7nK08ICFQNk7Aod62IAwA... It's the same Saginaw style pump as ours.

 

[Drock]

Here's another one.........http://www.quadratec.com/products/5...oglemerchant&gclid=CNX58eTM08ICFQIQ7AodhzQAZg

 

[Skinny]

I'm assuming you are going to use the winch as self recovery and not a utility winch?

I owned a MM hydro winch on a Wrangler and it worked awesome. Only problem was that you lose line pull when you call for power assist. Everytime you turn the wheel the winch stops pulling. Just the way the system works and you are always turning the wheel when trying to unstick yourself. My Cuck has a hard enough time providing me with power assist when I stab the brakes hard enough.

You may want to look into a secondary hydraulic pump for just the winch. It was really the ONLY downside to the hydro winch. Man did that think like working long pulls, you could tell it was just happy to spool cable all day long. Just don't ask to turn the steering wheel

 

[Sharecropper]

I'm assuming you are going to use the winch as self recovery and not a utility winch?

I owned a MM hydro winch on a Wrangler and it worked awesome. Only problem was that you lose line pull when you call for power assist. Everytime you turn the wheel the winch stops pulling. Just the way the system works and you are always turning the wheel when trying to unstick yourself. My Cuck has a hard enough time providing me with power assist when I stab the brakes hard enough.

You may want to look into a secondary hydraulic pump for just the winch. It was really the ONLY downside to the hydro winch. Man did that think like working long pulls, you could tell it was just happy to spool cable all day long. Just don't ask to turn the steering wheel

Skinny - The reason that line pull was lost when the wheel was turned was because the factory Jeep pump does not have enough volume capacity to satisfy both demands for fluid power. That factory pump was designed and engineered to provide sufficient flow rate for the Jeep power steering only. The AGR pump in Drock's post above states "Designed to increase flow rate by 40% at 1400 rpm while providing 1500 psi available pressure. Custom ported housing reduces flow restriction, allowing pump to run stronger and cooler. A must for hydraulic winch owners."

Obviously the HMMWV pump was designed to satisfy the higer demand, so I plan to tinker around and see if I can retro-fit one of these on my 6.2. If not, I will go with one of the higher volume after market pumps. I will photo document this in my rebuild thread.

 

[pigfoot63]

Pump

I'm running a HMMV pump on one of my hunting trucks , been a while since I did this but going by memory I think I just swapped the tank and intake fitting out of the old pump.

 

[Skinny]

Just remember that trying to pull cable while turning the tires and holding the brakes is a huge demand, the winch always gets the short straw. Pretty much every good hydro setup uses an aux pump. I hope it works out.

 

[Keith_J]

Depends on how much back pressure the winch motor can take or if it can take any back pressure on the return to tank port. Well, assuming the hydraulics are plumbed that way. If parallel, then the motor can easily take all the flow, robbing the power steering of its flow.

In a serial circuit, the return flow from the motor then can go to the steering gear box and brake booster, at lower pressure of course. But at 1500 PSI, there isn't much potential.

Going with an additional hydraulic pump adds complexity. It would be cheaper to use a 24 volt winch, then you have both batteries and alternators. Plus you can use the NATO port up front with NATO cables, for a front or rear mounted winch. That is the ideal setup. Sure, hydraulic winches run cool but since the brakes also use the pump, I feel safer leaving that system as simple as it can be. Plus 24 volt motors run a little cooler, thanks to more favorable copper losses in the motor.

 

[richingalveston]

Look at PSC. I got the Hydro assist steering. The pump is a higher output but you have to have a remote reservoir which you can get from them also. Instead of using the hydro assist connection you can plumb the winch return to the remote reservoir where the hydro assist connects.

 

[Sharecropper]

Depends on how much back pressure the winch motor can take or if it can take any back pressure on the return to tank port. Well, assuming the hydraulics are plumbed that way. If parallel, then the motor can easily take all the flow, robbing the power steering of its flow.

In a serial circuit, the return flow from the motor then can go to the steering gear box and brake booster, at lower pressure of course. But at 1500 PSI, there isn't much potential.

Going with an additional hydraulic pump adds complexity. It would be cheaper to use a 24 volt winch, then you have both batteries and alternators. Plus you can use the NATO port up front with NATO cables, for a front or rear mounted winch. That is the ideal setup. Sure, hydraulic winches run cool but since the brakes also use the pump, I feel safer leaving that system as simple as it can be. Plus 24 volt motors run a little cooler, thanks to more favorable copper losses in the motor.

Keith J and Skinny - Thanks for your comments, and thanks for reminding me that the hydro boost brake system also relies on the power steering pump to function properly. After considering the fluid demands of the steering and brake systems, I have come to the conclusion that the engine-driven PS pump, whether stock or upgraded, would not satisfy the pressure demands of all three systems if a hydraulic winch were to be installed and in use. Therefore I am scrapping any idea of using a hydraulic winch and instead will begin to evaluate 24 volt winches.

Next question - who manufactures the best 24 volt winch, and how is the best way to wire the thing for trouble-free use?

 

[Drock]

How much are you looking to spend? How many LBS of pulling power are you looking for? I found ah few but there insanely expensive. From what I'm finding 12V would be MUCH cheaper..

 

[Drock]

Here's one that looks pretty good, this site has ah ton of them..........http://www.winchdepot.com/Winches-W...8&t_s=300&t_pt=100702&t_pl=6426&t_pn=S/B97380

 

[Chaski]

I'd say go with the mile marker. Your truck already has one of the highest flow and pressure output Saginaw P pumps made because of the hydroboost brakes. The winch will be plumbed in series along with your brakes and power steering pump between the hydroboost and your steering box. Your brakes will be getting first dibs on fluid. A high flow pump will only make your winch run faster... And most likely your v belts slip because you will be reaching the horsepower limit of the v belts. It will only affect the way your steering operates while you are winching. Give it a try.

And to top it off it is easy to modify the output of your pump.
http://www.gmtruckcentral.com/articles/2013/powersteeringmods/

 

[Skinny]

Have you run a hydro winch before? Sure it only affects the steering but it gets old trying to pull cable while turning the wheel only to realize you can't turn both. Plus the factory system barely has enough power to satisfy two demands without a winch in the system.

A high flow pump will do nothing for winch speed with a MileMarker. It's biggest issue is the sizing of the hydraulic control valves. No matter what you do, it will only pull so much and so fast because of that bottleneck.

 

[Chaski]

Have you run a hydro winch before? Sure it only affects the steering but it gets old trying to pull cable while turning the wheel only to realize you can't turn both. Plus the factory system barely has enough power to satisfy two demands without a winch in the system.

A high flow pump will do nothing for winch speed with a MileMarker. It's biggest issue is the sizing of the hydraulic control valves. No matter what you do, it will only pull so much and so fast because of that bottleneck.

Nope.
I don't have a hydraulic winch. Your wrangler had one of the lower pressure / flow saginaw pumps made. Do you have your original pump on your CUCV? Sounds strange that you are loosing power steering while on the brakes. My K30 has almost annoyingly twitchy steering because the pressure is so high. Might be worth pulling apart the pressure fitting and checking the orifice size and number of washers on your pump. It is easy to do, worst part is the fluid mess. You never know if someone swapped it for some mystery auto zone pump and swapped the cans because they lost a pump. I don't think it is fair to say the factory system doesn't have sufficient power to do steering and brakes. I've worked a bit on a m1008 with 37's and crossover steering, on that truck we prepped the box for hydraulic assist, because it does OK, but it could use a little more to push around itself sometimes.

My understanding of the mile markers is that they have a flow restrictor. That will be in series with your power steering while winching. I've never run one, nor have the two other guys I know that both run around with hydraulic assist steering and electric winches.

They both have faults, a 12v electric winch is pulling 300+ amps at load...

maybe a PTO winch? Or a second pump?

 

[Sharecropper]

Guys I am lost. When I started this thread I was ****-bent to use a hydraulic winch powered by a stronger engine-driven PS pump. Then Keith J and Skinny's comments caused me to abandon that idea and change directions to an electric winch. Now after Chaski's comments, I am leaning back towards a Mile Marker 12,000 hydraulic unit powered by a replacement 1500 psi engine-driven pump. What's a mother to do?

The main reason I even want the winch is for emergency self-recovery. To be completely honest, the thing may never be used. Similar to my Personal Defense Weapon - I would rather have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

Please continue the debate.......

 

[infidel got me]

The electric winch will be the easiest, and probably more cost effective.

Look into the warn 18k winch, my friend has one and loves it.

Unless you gotta have a mile marker, I think the warn will serve your needs.

Your truck - Your buck.

Maybe flip a coin if your still on the fence about it.

Either way good luck

WILL

 

[dawico]

Guys I am lost. When I started this thread I was ****-bent to use a hydraulic winch powered by a stronger engine-driven PS pump. Then Keith J and Skinny's comments caused me to abandon that idea and change directions to an electric winch. Now after Chaski's comments, I am leaning back towards a Mile Marker 12,000 hydraulic unit powered by a replacement 1500 psi engine-driven pump. What's a mother to do?

The main reason I even want the winch is for emergency self-recovery. To be completely honest, the thing may never be used. Similar to my Personal Defense Weapon - I would rather have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

Please continue the debate.......

The electric winch will be the easiest to swap vehicles on also. Not that you would put a 18k winch on a receiver dolly................

They all have their positives and negatives.

I personally like the electric winch. All you need is a winch and batteries. Vehicle (running or not) is optional.

 

[Chaski]

You should probably weigh your decision on what you want to use the winch for. I cut firewood, if I ever get a winch I'll probably go for a MileMarker so I can use it to skid logs without worrying about it. Now if I was in some off road competition and needed to drive my truck like I was having an epileptic fit steering, braking and winching all at the same time I'd go electric. Probably depends on terrain too... Long or short pulls to get out of trouble.

I don't think you can go wrong short of harbor freight.

 

[Sharecropper]

Well folks, I have been struggling with this decision all afternoon, but I finally came to grips with it. Now that I have made the decision, I am done thinking about it and will proceed with procurement of the winch and everything necessary to get it mounted and hooked up.
I will turn 64 years old next week, and in order to decide which winch to install on my M1028, I had to drift back in time about 40 years or so and remember my winch experiences when me and a bunch of other guys were mud bogging through the hills and hollows of northwest Georgia. Through the 1970's and early 1980's I owned more than 20 4WD trucks, all of them lifted with the biggest tires and wheels available at the time, and almost all of them with winches installed. I have lost track of how many Warn 8000 electric winches I have owned, but I still remember the mud, the blood, and the beer associated with those deep mud holes we all would try to get through. We would always get stuck and have to get winched out, that was part of the fun. And I can remember many times my electic winch killing my dual batteries in the process. And if I let my truck go dead, I would need a jump-start, which would always cost a 6-pack and a bunch of laughs.
So my decision is to mount a Mile Marker 10,500 HMMWV hydraulic on my M1028 and feed it from a larger-capacity engine-driven PS pump. There are several of these military surplus winches available, new in the crate, for $750. I will need to purchase the hydraulic plumbing kit and hand control from Mile Marker, however the total cost will be less than a Grand. I plan on having my machine shop fabricate a custom mount between the front frame rails under the radiator, with the fairlead just below the tag space on the bumper.
I will photo document the whole process in my rebuild thread.

Thanks everybody for your thoughts and comments